Tartan Etiquette

[Manxstralian]

ps - I have located exactly one gggg grandfather who was a Manxman, surname of Dorian or Doran. I am now resisting the urge to get a Manx blue like you.

It's the way of the world... I'm still keen on an Angus District kilt (for my grandmother), a Cornwall (for my mother), and was interested in a MacLean hunting (my gal of 8 years is a MacLean) until I read this "membership is restricted to those that qualify under the "3-generation" rule which Clan Maclean respects, in common with other Scottish Clans." on the MacLean website http://www.maclean.org/maclean-registration.php. Oh well, at least it cuts down the options, which is probably a good thing.

I would be very keen on a Manx Hunting, I have a 5-yard wool kilt from USAKilts in my sights at some stage. Still, I do feel that the "one man, one kilt" attitude is correct, but I do have the "give me everything now!" attitude which is an unfortunate side-effect of modern life. If this is the cross I have to bear, it's a fairly lightweight and comfortable cross (hopefully with a sweet Argyll jacket to pad my shoulders).

If you do go for the Manx Blue, go for pleating to the blue stripe, I'm off to Tasmania next week, and will hopefully get some photos I can post.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Downunder Kilt]

First I have heard of this supposed 3 genrations rule and if you punch it into the internet the only clan site to come up in the hits is Clan Maclean. org, which from all indications is a company,soctiey, charity, much like any of the other Clan MacLean socities around the world.
From the MacLean .org website:
Part of a profile of the Organistions Founder Donald H MacLean
Then, in the early nineties, uneasy about the mismatch between personal web-sites and the internet's global reach, he created a web-site for the Clan Maclean, a senior Scots family dispersed, for historic reasons, across the globe. A decade later it has more than 3,000 registered members. Typically he also recruited an expert team to run it and its forums (these 'keeper-cousins' are located in Belgium, New Zealand, Florida, Carolina, Seattle, Hawaii and Glasgow) and has handed the reins to them, proud to have another "Founder and Honorary President" certificate among the trophies in his den

[SorenMacTavish]

Slightly off topic, but I think Jock raises a very interesting point. We sons and daughters of emigrants to the various colonies can be very interested in tracing our connections back to the old country; indeed, it is often a powerful reason to wear the kilt in the first place. I think it is part of a basic human need to understand where we come from. Not everyone has it as strongly as the members of XMTS perhaps, but a need nonetheless. It is probably a trite observation, but the people who still live where their ancestors have always lived probably do not feel the same need to the same extent, probably because they already know or feel they know their cultural and genealogical origins. Hence the locals feel no need to justify their tartan choice, whereas the diaspora does.


This idea was reinforced for me whilst watching 2 documentaries recently; one on Vietnamese babies that were flown to Australia in 1975 as part of Operation 'Babylift' and the other on Ethiopian refugees. The people involved felt like they 'lacked something' that only a visit to their country of origin, connecting with their relatives who stayed behind, and sampling their culture, could fill. But they were also very happy to come 'home' to Australia by the end of the journey. Similar issues continue to be a problem for many indigenous Australians who were adopted out at birth in a misguided attempt to assimilate them into white Australia. It is a cross-cultural issue.


I understand their need completely having just experienced the compulsive addiction known as 'Ancestry.com'. I now have an even stronger compulsion to visit ALL the places where my ancestors originated, not the just the place from where my father's father's etc came.


Be that as it may, I think the idea is very relevant to this discussion. When your ancestors left the old country 4 or 5 or even more generations ago, sometimes in murky and unrecorded circumstances, any clan affiliation was often broken and left behind as well. Families themselves were often broken up. Language and culture was lost or was changed by 'rose-coloured memory'. When you are removed from your place of origin and are no longer surrounded by a large number of people who are directly related to you, the need to 'reconnect' with your origins can be very strong.


So I think the simple rule of 'wear the tartan of your father's line' is entirely appropriate for people who still live in the UK. I think it is much less straightforward for the Celtic diaspora who feel a strong need to reconnect with the culture of their ancestors by wearing the kilt, but they aren't sure of the connection (because the link was broken long ago), their family histories are complex or simply not known, and there is no cultural context to help them.


Thank goodness for XMTS and the great rabble because you, my friends, help us fill the vacuum.


All the best,


John

John, beautifully stated perspective. And I must say it very much rang home for me.

Yes, I admit, I am one of those trying desperately to reclaim all of my heritage. (and yes, I too became addicted to ancestry.com...busted!!)

I was raised knowing about my mother's heritage and the sad reality of "ujamiit" (leather ID tags issued to Inuit peoples by the Canadian government for census and registry) which stripped my mother's relatives of their names and ancestry and reduced them to merely a number (number code being: E or W for if they were east or west of Gjoa Haven, followed by a string of numbers for what district they were in and the number of people in their immediate family). This fact made tracing her ancestry rather difficult after about 4 generations. Hard to find names yanno when the governmental records are just a series of numbers.

So, as to my father's ancestry, I resumed contact with him after years of being estranged from him, and with his help and that of ancestry.com; I was able to trace his beautifully rich ancestry clear back to 397AD

With that knowledge of where part of my family comes from, comes the burning desire to re-connect with my lineage, however, I want to do it in the most respectful way, and not make myself out to be just another "dumb-a** American"....hence my rather naive question being posed earlier.

Thus to date, I have only worn "MUGs" or memorial tartan (Confederate Memorial), and recently ventured into buying a "fan-based" tartan (R'Lyeh sett), but I wanted to make an informed decision before purchasing a tartan from a clan affiliation (as I stated earlier in the thread).


Anyhow, back in topic...(brain got derailed there for a moment)

Seems, there is a clear distinction in views from the UK, the US, Canada and other places abroad. And well, I think that all views are valid for the person saying them and perhaps the regions they are representing.

As you stated John, many of us not from the UK, do tend to be the "Celtic Diaspora" and are looking to connect with that part of our heritage in just about any way we can...be it through the tartans or otherwise.

And well, I think another very valid point is being made here by other posters; that point being, "don't be that guy/gal who looks like a schmuck".

So, the gist of what I am getting here from the rabble is wear what you will, but be mindful and respectful about it. Seems pretty sound advice if you ask me, and advice that can be used in many other situations as well.

[Antipodean Celt]

It's the way of the world... I'm still keen on an Angus District kilt (for my grandmother), a Cornwall (for my mother), and was interested in a MacLean hunting (my gal of 8 years is a MacLean) until I read this "membership is restricted to those that qualify under the "3-generation" rule which Clan Maclean respects, in common with other Scottish Clans." on the MacLean website http://www.maclean.org/maclean-registration.php. Oh well, at least it cuts down the options, which is probably a good thing.

I would be very keen on a Manx Hunting, I have a 5-yard wool kilt from USAKilts in my sights at some stage. Still, I do feel that the "one man, one kilt" attitude is correct, but I do have the "give me everything now!" attitude which is an unfortunate side-effect of modern life. If this is the cross I have to bear, it's a fairly lightweight and comfortable cross (hopefully with a sweet Argyll jacket to pad my shoulders).

If you do go for the Manx Blue, go for pleating to the blue stripe, I'm off to Tasmania next week, and will hopefully get some photos I can post.

Cheers,

Cameron

Our thinking on this is scarily similar Cameron. I also have Cornish, Welsh, Lowlands, Northumbrian, Irish, Devonshire etc etc etc ancestry. The options are both intoxicating and perplexing, in that I also feel the tension between 'I could have one of those too' and the "one man, one kilt" approach. But as you say so well, if that is the only cross I have to bear, it is one that I will carry very lightly indeed.

All photos of kilts are voraciously welcomed.

[Antipodean Celt]

So, the gist of what I am getting here from the rabble is wear what you will, but be mindful and respectful about it. Seems pretty sound advice if you ask me, and advice that can be used in many other situations as well.

i think you have nailed it there Soren. Respect is at the heart of the matter, and to be respectful, one must be informed. Well said.

[Jock Scot]

I think that you chaps "over there" need to remember the we "over here" have roots too, and those roots are often not pure Scots. So what you chaps seek is nothing new. We "over here" just don't seem to make a song and dance over it.

Now to try to add a wee touch of light hearted-ness to my "dreaded two hour tartan justification lecture" comment, let me recount what happened to me a few days ago.

There I was taking a wee stroll, kilted, on a deserted single track road and a car passes carefully and disappears round the corner. On I go and lo and behold there the car is parked with its occupants taking in the view------I have to admit it is pretty damn good------ as I approach we bid each other good day and the conversation starts with a middle aged American couple from New York festooned with tartan. "Are you Scottish?" they ask. "Oh lord" think I, "ambushed!" "Yes." I reply. "You don't sound Scottish" came a good natured reply. They were right, I don't! And on the very pleasent conversation went.

Some two hours later we parted company and what were we discussing? Tartan! Long lost but some dimly remembered family Scottish history gathered together from relations spread all over America and Canada and so on. These were charming people who obviousely wanted to find their roots and good luck to them! This type of conversation is just the latest of this kind that I have had many times over the years. Harmless, sometimes interesting conversations with nice people and oh so time consuming, but I have usually never begrudged the time.

BUT------- and this is the bit that I fail to grasp. I have Norman roots, but I dont ride off the ferry at Caen on a bycycle, wearing a berret, wasp shirt with a string of onions around my neck. I have Australian roots, but I dont get off the plane at Sydney wearing a slouch hat with a boomerang tucked into my belt. I have, Dutch ancestors, but I don't wear cloggs to Holland. I have German connections, but do I wear leather shorts around Berlin? No. I have English genes, but I don't cross the border at Carlisle wearing a bowler hat. So why is it that visitors to Scotland wear tartan hats, tartan scarves, tartan ties, tartan trousers, tartan underwear(?), tartan socks, tartan shirts, tartan coats, and carry tartan bags and tartan umbrellas? Not neccessarily all at the same time I might add! Alright, I exaggerate a tad, but I do wonder sometimes what our visitors think they are coming too----a theme park?--------and I do wonder what memories they take away with them? Are they satisfied? Disappointed? Are their ancestral needs satisfied? Paricularly when most do not appear to even know which part of Scotland they hail from? I do wonder sometimes and thus far, I am still rather mystified by it all.

[andycwb]

... why is it that visitors to Scotland wear tartan hats, tartan scarves, tartan ties, tartan socks, tartan coats, and carry tartan bags and tartan umbrellas?

I think tartan is seen as Scottish far more than any of the other things you suggest are associated with the other roots. Me? I'd want more reason than just being in Scotland to wear a kilt. Mind you, it will get worn in Wales and England too. :-)

[Manxstralian]

I think that you chaps "over there" need to remember the we "over here" have roots too, and those roots are often not pure Scots. So what you chaps seek is nothing new. We "over here" just don't seem to make a song and dance over it.

Now to try to add a wee touch of light hearted-ness to my "dreaded two hour tartan justification lecture" comment, let me recount what happened to me a few days ago.

There I was taking a wee stroll, kilted, on a deserted single track road and a car passes carefully and disappears round the corner. On I go and lo and behold there the car is parked with its occupants taking in the view------I have to admit it is pretty damn good------ as I approach we bid each other good day and the conversation starts with a middle aged American couple from New York festooned with tartan. "Are you Scottish?" they ask. "Oh lord" think I, "ambushed!" "Yes." I reply. "You don't sound Scottish" came a good natured reply. They were right, I don't! And on the very pleasent conversation went.

Some two hours later we parted company and what were we discussing? Tartan! Long lost but some dimly remembered family Scottish history gathered together from relations spread all over America and Canada and so on. These were charming people who obviousely wanted to find their roots and good luck to them! This type of conversation is just the latest of this kind that I have had many times over the years. Harmless, sometimes interesting conversations with nice people and oh so time consuming, but I have usually never begrudged the time.

BUT------- and this is the bit that I fail to grasp. I have Norman roots, but I dont ride off the ferry at Caen on a bycycle, wearing a berret, wasp shirt with a string of onions around my neck. I have Australian roots, but I dont get off the plane at Sydney wearing a slouch hat with a boomerang tucked into my belt. I have, Dutch ancestors, but I don't wear cloggs to Holland. I have German connections, but do I wear leather shorts around Berlin? No. I have English genes, but I don't cross the border at Carlisle wearing a bowler hat. So why is it that visitors to Scotland wear tartan hats, tartan scarves, tartan ties, tartan socks, tartan coats, and carry tartan bags and tartan umbrellas? Not neccessarily all at the same time I might add! Alright, I exaggerate a tad, but I do wonder sometimes what our visitors think they are coming too----a theme park?--------and I do wonder what memories they take away with them? Are they satisfied? Disappointed? Are their ancestral needs satisfied? Paricularly when most do not appear to even know which part of Scotland they hail from? I do wonder sometimes and thus far, I am still rather mystified by it all.

Perhaps (as it seems to me at least), roots in Europe are less of an importance for Europeans, where as roots transplanted are transplanted into shallower soil. History here is not the same as history there, simply due to the timeframe.

I have only once stood on land and been able to think "this is where my ancestors came from" and even then, just for a few days. To be steeped in history, and in your ancestry must be a powerful thing, but it doesn't translate to the Antipodes.

Cheers,

Cameron

[TheOfficialBren]

Jock,
I would humbly add that there is a certain ring to what you are saying, sir. Your points are completely valid.

Here's some insight from "over here": you see tartanry all about you on a daily basis. Those of us "over here" are often several generations removed from any of the nations "over there" and over the years much of the Old World traditions that are commonplace in the Old World are dilluted or lost entirely for many of us. Sometimes there is a feeling of being 'left out' in a sense (a poor choice of words, admittedly, but that's the best that I can manage at the moment).

I will offer another view: sometimes people from abroad with Native American/First Nations ancestry tend to go a little in the same direction that we of the diaspora do in, for example, Scotland. They attend powows and visit the Reservations, even bringing back curious souvenirs from their travels. Sometimes this even happens within our borders. Our indigenous cultures are often on the periphery of daily life.

Take my sister and brother for example. They are both more interested in our Cherokee heritage than our Scottish and English roots. All three are equally prevalent in our family but that is how they choose to identify themselves ethnically because that is what they are drawn toward. I tend to identify more with our Scottish roots than our other heritages. This kind of proves your point while adding weight to my own words.

We are all human beings with more in common than we often realise...but we do all come from different backgrounds and upbringings. That DOES affect our decisions and views.

I would guess that there are folk within Scotland who are equally passionate about their heritage outwith Scotland compared to people outwith Scotland who are passionate about their Scottish heritage, sir.

This thread has the potential to become another bloody nose match so I will tailor my words with grace and understanding. Let's all remain open-minded and respect one another's views. When our views become indefatigably entrenched and hard-nosed we only end up pummelling ourselves with our own stubbornness.

I very much respect your views, Jock, and consider your advice to be of a premier calibre. I also take to heart what chaps like you have to say. "How it's done" advice is always a solid foundation and yours is among the firmest.


A big dram for you, my friend.

[English Bloke]

... I have only once stood on land and been able to think "this is where my ancestors came from" and even then, just for a few days. To be steeped in history, and in your ancestry must be a powerful thing, but it doesn't translate to the Antipodes ...

I have a relative (ancestor if you will) from my Dad's side. He was born near where my Dad was born in South Yorkshire in 1888 (a bit before me Dad I'll grant you.) and emigrated to Australia (alone) sometime between 1901 and 1911 (records are scant) He enlisted into the AIF in Melbourne in 1915 and after suffering wounds at Galipoli, was later killed at Passchendaele (3rd Ypres) in 1917. He lies in Belgium, in Tyne Cot Cemetery, under a 'Rising Sun' hat badge.



I have found out all I can about the man and his arm of our family. I've even given my daughter his name as a middle name (it's one of those names... It's not like he was called Trevor...)

I would dearly love to take a trip to Melbourne and walk in more of his footsteps, so I guess it can translate to the Antipodes, depending on the circumstances.

Edit: Not sure when this trip to Aus will occur. Unfortunately I wouldn't be allowed to go alone and would have to bring the rest of my Tribe, which would be prohibitively expensive. But we shall see, maybe one day.