Why Might A Clan NOT Have A Tartan?

[O'Callaghan]

I could muddy the waters by throwing Irish clans into the discussion. There were once many of them, and a couple of dozen of the chiefs were once recognised by the Irish government, even though it is unconstitutional for them to recognise titles of nobility! There is no provision for Irish clan chiefs to recognise tartans, but tartan registries will register any tartan that anyone submits, as long as it is different and they are given a sample. So, naturally there are registered tartans for a fair number of Irish family names, although some of these families were never clans, and many actual Irish clans have no corresponding tartan. Very few of these tartans are readily available at a decent price anyway.

Of course, the tartan mills spread the idea that Irish tartans go by county and not family name, but Irish county tartans are an invention of the mills in the first place! (and not a very old one). OTOH, there is a more authentic tradition of solid colour Irish kilts (usually either dark green or saffron), although it really only goes back to the late 1800s.

And yes, there is a chief of Clan Callaghan, although he lives in Barcelona and his first language is probably Spanish, but only a defunct clan association, albeit when it did exist it was based in Mallow, County Cork (and not in the United States, as most of the Scottish clan associations seem to be). There is also a Callaghan tartan, also not very old, and ScotWeb even sell it, but the chances of an Irish clan chief pronouncing in any way on tartans is close to zero (whether in English, Irish or Spanish, LOL!).

[figheadair]

A historical question: What reasons might there be for a clan NOT having their own tartan? They annoyed the tartan-maker? Didn't get the memo? They decided it was just a fad?

The answer is simple. Historically i.e. pre-1800ish there were no such thing as a clan tartan.

I believe it is the proper Highland tradition for a woman who marries into another clan, to then wear her husbands tartan and clan badge.

That's very much a late C19th/C20th 'traditon'.

[Mike_Oettle]

Hi, Piperchick –
the situation of the Crichton family with regard to tartans caught my attention because my son-in-law is a Crichton descendant, as is a colleague of mine.
As has been mentioned, the Crichton tartan is of recent devisal. But what makes me dislike it is that it is excessively grey. The Edinburgh District tartan is more colourful, and I intend to get my son-in-law something in that tartan. (My colleague probably won’t go in that direction, since she is married to a Glaswegian who has told me he won’t have Edinburgh tartan in his house!)
For all that clan tartans are a relatively recent development (most traditional ones go back to the Victorian era), the clan system is of course much older.
And while Lowland families were traditionally not referred to as clans, several of them now use that term, including the one I fit into, Clan Lindsay.
Especially in the Borders region, a clannishness was certainly evident, as the folk living there had to band together to resist the depredations of the English cross-border raiders. Needless to say they also took part in cross-border raiding themselves.
While Lowland regiments were late in taking to tartan, they have certainly worn tartan trews since the mid-Victorian era, and worn bonnets (mostly Kilmarnock bonnets, it seems).
And, as has often been mentioned here, the US term Scotch-Irish covers families that had settled in Ireland from Scotland before taking ship for the New World, so they definitely have Scottish roots.
Regards,
Mike

[OC Richard]

The answer is simple. Historically i.e. pre-1800ish there were no such thing as a clan tartan.

Beat me to it! Exactly what I was going to say... traditionally NO clan had a "clan tartan"! The entire concept of the fabric's pattern having group significance is relatively modern. When the concept emerged old nameless tartans found themselves suddenly bearing clan names, and new pseudo-traditional tartans were created to fill the perceived need, and many found themselves (whatever their true origin) being given the stamp of approval by the Chiefs.

[McElmurry]

Beat me to it! Exactly what I was going to say... traditionally NO clan had a "clan tartan"! The entire concept of the fabric's pattern having group significance is relatively modern. When the concept emerged old nameless tartans found themselves suddenly bearing clan names, and new pseudo-traditional tartans were created to fill the perceived need, and many found themselves (whatever their true origin) being given the stamp of approval by the Chiefs.

Once a symbol is decades old the provenience of the symbol becomes less important to the group. It is simply their symbol to them. The Saltire flag has been around since before the 16th century but the Tricolor was only recognized in 1916. Does that mean the Tricolor is less meaningful to the Irish than the Saltire is to the Scots? I think not.

I personally enjoy posts by those who point out the historical facts and I prefer to know what is fact and what is legend. But in the end if someone's Nana said tartan x is the family tartan then no logical argument is likely to change their mind nor reduce their feelings for the family tartan.

You can't logic someone out of a strongly held belief they were not logic'd into.

[TheOfficialBren]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

[Grizzly]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

The legend of the Saltire -

Believed to be the oldest flag in Europe, the origin of the flag comes from an old legend. Tradition has it that the flag originated in a battle fought near the East Lothian village of Athelstaneford in AD 832.

An army of Picts and Scots under King Angus invaded the Lothians (at that time still Northumbrian territory), and found itself surrounded by a larger force of Saxons led by Athelstan. Fearing the outcome, King Angus led prayers for deliverance and was rewarded by seeing a cloud formation of a white Saltire against the blue sky.

The king vowed that if, with the saint’s help, he gained victory, then Andrew would thereafter be the patron saint of Scotland. The Scots did win, and the Saltire eventually became the flag of Scotland.

In 2003 the Scottish Parliament specified the official colour of the flag using the international colour coding system and it was decided that the white St Andrew's Cross should appear on an azure background known as Pantone 300.

Along with the royal flag, the Lion Rampant, the Saltire can be seen flying with gusto in the crowds of international sporting events, on churches and on national and local government offices.

[TheOfficialBren]

The legend of the Saltire -

Believed to be the oldest flag in Europe, the origin of the flag comes from an old legend. Tradition has it that the flag originated in a battle fought near the East Lothian village of Athelstaneford in AD 832.

An army of Picts and Scots under King Angus invaded the Lothians (at that time still Northumbrian territory), and found itself surrounded by a larger force of Saxons led by Athelstan. Fearing the outcome, King Angus led prayers for deliverance and was rewarded by seeing a cloud formation of a white Saltire against the blue sky.

The king vowed that if, with the saint’s help, he gained victory, then Andrew would thereafter be the patron saint of Scotland. The Scots did win, and the Saltire eventually became the flag of Scotland.

In 2003 the Scottish Parliament specified the official colour of the flag using the international colour coding system and it was decided that the white St Andrew's Cross should appear on an azure background known as Pantone 300.

Along with the royal flag, the Lion Rampant, the Saltire can be seen flying with gusto in the crowds of international sporting events, on churches and on national and local government offices.

Well, there you go. Taken with a very large pinch of salt it still seems to be older than the 1500s. Legends aren't always complete fact but they aren't always fiction. That's the difference between a legend and a myth. A myth is pure fantasy. A legend has some factual basis (even if it's a stretch).

[McElmurry]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

I edited my post and added "before"in front of "the 16th century" to account for reports the Saltire may have been used on a flag prior to 1503, the date I gleaned from Wikipedia. I guess I did say I was interested in historical facts and legends so I opened the door there.

Thanks for the info Grizzly I had not heard the legend about the flag possibly being used as early as AD 832.

[Grizzly]

Well I do think we need to take it with a large pinch of salt but in the absence of any other info it makes a good story. Perhaps one of our actual scottish scholars could shed some more light?