Who Belongs to the Clan?

[BCAC]

I think this (quote below) poses a very interesting perspective, and one that I am in a mind of to beg to differ with ThistleDown and Father Bill somewhat. While I'm sure these twa braw heelan gentleman have given the letter of the law, so to speak, I would say that this is not the be-all-end-all given the current situation of Scotland's clan system (in my own humble opinion and experience, of course, qv). By this I mean to say that, particularly from my experience in the Clan Gregor Society, the Scottish Clan Societies, by and large, are what I would deem to be the equivalent of a modern clan system (the original having been dismantled after the '45). Thereby if you wished to be a member of your "living" clan with practical opportunities to support and further its heritage and general preservation in addition to fellowship, joining a clan society could well be a particularly fulfilling lifetime endeavor, with the one caveat you'll likely get out of it only what you put into it. This is not to say that personal acceptance by your Chief is anything to sneeze at- hardly! More likely a moment you will personally cherish and never forget. But after the moment is over, for most of us it is quite possibly the last time we ever personally meet our chief for all practical intents and purposes. So to say you are a member of the clan by virtue of the chief's personal acceptance is essentially nominal outside of sentimental value. Or at least that is all it is likely to be for the vast majority of clan "members." And this may very well be all some hope or wish for out of their clan/heritage. To each their own, and I will most certainly not endeavour to rob them of their joy.

I will admit that this viewpoint is certainly subjective, as it is more the spirit of the "law" than the letter, so to speak (again). But it's the way I see it: reality versus "on paper". Have sort of lost track of where else I was going with this, so am going to "drop back and punt" as they say (in America anyway)...

ADDENDUM: I can't speak for all clan societies of course, but with regard to Clan Gregor (and it's my impression it is likewise with many clan societies), the Chief is our patron (of the Society) and of a very similar mind to the Sinclair, if I'm not mistaken. So in a sense it is a package deal as far as being a member of the Society AND the "clan."

Hope this wasn't too off topic. I think the OP is very poignant (in a positive way for me at least)...

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

How can you say that "these twa braw heelan gentleman have given the letter of the law" and then "beg to differ"?

The Scottish Clan Societies are no way the "equivalent of a modern clan system".

[Deil the Yin]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

How can you say that "these twa braw heelan gentleman have given the letter of the law" and then "beg to differ"?

The Scottish Clan Societies are no way the "equivalent of a modern clan system".

Because though the twa gentlemen have, I assume, accurately stated the "letter of the law," it does not IN MY OPINION give an accurate picture of the reality of how things are working with the so called "clans" IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE. So while the "letter of the law" is technically true, the "spirit of the law" is what is the reality, more or less anyway and if I've not misused that analogy... I'm certainly not a lawyer. You are of course most welcome to disagree, but without a case study to the contrary I'm not moved by your statement to change my opinion (if that was your aim...?).

Regards,
Wesley

[Pipersson]

As I heard a chief of one of the reiving border clans say, "If someone is willing to ride with me and help me steal English cattle, I'm going to give him a horse"!

Mmh, I am curious if Sir William wanted me to steal cattle with him...
I would, of course!(But I am allergic against horses...)

Tom

[ThistleDown]

The thing in my case is that its been easier for me to get a hold of the clan chief in person (Malcolm Sinclair which was a great experience by the way) than those who are running the UK branch of the Clan Sinclair society website.
I do consider myself a clansman, but I can't help feeling that it might make more sense to the man in the street (at least here in Norway) if I also became a member of the clan society. What do you think I should do?

That's very difficult for you, Johnny. In the short-term perhaps you can simply accept that Caithness has acknowledged you as a Sinclair clansman and continue to wait for a response from the UK society. Be patient with them; those who run these little socities are all volunteers and some have been shoe-horned into roles they may not be perfectly adapted to. Eventually someone will notice you rapping at the door and, be assured, they will let you in. Don't be concerned about the 'man in the street'; tell anyone who asks that you have a friend in the Earl of Caithness and that's good enough for you. I wish you well.

[ThistleDown]

Because though the twa gentlemen have, I assume, accurately stated the "letter of the law," it does not IN MY OPINION give an accurate picture of the reality of how things are working with the so called "clans" IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE. So while the "letter of the law" is technically true, the "spirit of the law" is what is the reality, more or less anyway and if I've not misused that analogy... I'm certainly not a lawyer. You are of course most welcome to disagree, but without a case study to the contrary I'm not moved by your statement to change my opinion (if that was your aim...?).

Regards,
Wesley

Hmmm, well I don't really want to bring a discussion of the law into this thread, but I will say that Highland culture sees little or no connection between the hereditary tribal and the corporate legal. There are societies of like-minded folk in the Highlands of Scotland ('hurling folk and curling folk and little lambs in ivy'), but they don't take the place of families or tribes/clans even if they call themselves clanthis or clanthat. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any native culture in the world where the corporate supersedes the family. But, of course, I am most willing to be illuminated.

[McElmurry]

From what appears to be an editorial piece posted at The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs. I would not take this as the Council's position on the matter but the fact it is on their website suggests such things might be discussed amongst the Chiefs.

Modern genealogical research has shown that few within any clan have a blood relationship with the chief’s family. And many who bear sept surnames find that their ancestors never had any connection with the declared clan or even its territory. Some are now seeking to become clans in their own right with their own chiefs. And surely this should be encouraged. Cumberland destroyed the original clan culture. Scott’s followers turned it into romantic myth and adapted it for their own times. If it has been re-invented once, why should it not be changed again to what people want in this century?

The entire article is here: http://www.clanchiefs.org/article/the-clan-system/

[ThistleDown]

I think this was a pick-up from the Panalba blog and posted in the SCSC site as a viewpoint only. As you said, not a position statement. I don't know who writes the Panalba blog, but I think Panalba Ltd. is still owned in America by Lord Semple of Gathering 2009 fame, and panalba.com is currently for sale. Much in this article is inaccurate or misleading.

[Johnny Selkie]

That's very difficult for you, Johnny. In the short-term perhaps you can simply accept that Caithness has acknowledged you as a Sinclair clansman and continue to wait for a response from the UK society. Be patient with them; those who run these little socities are all volunteers and some have been shoe-horned into roles they may not be perfectly adapted to. Eventually someone will notice you rapping at the door and, be assured, they will let you in. Don't be concerned about the 'man in the street'; tell anyone who asks that you have a friend in the Earl of Caithness and that's good enough for you. I wish you well.

Thanks for your great advice ThistleDown. I guess I just have to be patient then and keep on waiting in order to be accepted in the clan society.

[BCAC]

Because though the twa gentlemen have, I assume, accurately stated the "letter of the law," it does not IN MY OPINION give an accurate picture of the reality of how things are working with the so called "clans" IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE. So while the "letter of the law" is technically true, the "spirit of the law" is what is the reality, more or less anyway and if I've not misused that analogy... I'm certainly not a lawyer. You are of course most welcome to disagree, but without a case study to the contrary I'm not moved by your statement to change my opinion (if that was your aim...?).

Regards,
Wesley

So, basically, Wesley, what you are saying is in "the spirit of the law" (i.e. what is the reality IN YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE), I am not a member of my clan association so therefore I'm either not a clansman, or maybe a lesser clansman than he who is a member of said association?

I think perhaps we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Nathan]

Here's my two cents,

You are a member of the Clan whether you join the association or not. It is a birthright. That having been said, I really encourage those who value the fact that their Clan Association exists to consider taking out a membership. A Clan Association provides valuable services to their fellow Clansfolk such as representing the historic glory of your Clan at gatherings and games, assisting people with their personal geneological searches and passing on and perpetuating the history and traditions of the Clan.

Our Clan Association also provides an educational bursary annually, lays a wreath on the Clan's behalf at annual Remembrance Day services and is involved in other philanthropic and commemorative efforts.

Usually the fee to belong to such an organization is nominal. Ours is a mere $20 per year (or $500 for life).

The dues don't even come close to covering costs for the volunteers that give up countless hours and no small amount of funds to be there for when their fellow Clansman, Clanswoman or distant cousin (who isn't technically part of the Clan but has some link), comes searching for information in a quest to find their roots.

Whether or not you have the time or inclination to attend events, to work Clan tents or be a member in any way aside from on paper, I strongly encourage you to consider making this nominal donation in the form of an inexpensive membership part of your annual charitable budget.

It isn't what determines whether you are a member of your clan, but it is a great way to demonstrate that you care about your clan and distant kin.

N