1st Post--Opinions about neckwear and the Sheriffmuir Doublet

**CeilidhDoc** · 16th October 13, 12:35 AM

Hello all. I will post to introduce myself more properly within a few days but I have read many posts on this forum over the last few years and have learned a lot that I didn't find in books, as well as found references to books I needed to own (and then purchased), etc, etc. So thank you all for making a great place to find such needed information. I am particularly appreciative of the friendly debates by those with a lot of knowledge about kilts over the points that seem to be inconsistent from one source to another.

The burning question I have that prompted me to finally join the forum relates to an issue like that so here it goes:

I already have a PC and a Glen Orchy kilt jacket and vest set for black tie and daywear/business suit type occasions. I am looking to expand to coverage for white tie events. So I'm out ordering diced and argyle hose to match my tartans but most importantly I need a more formal jacket and waistcoat.

I really like the look of the Sheriffmuir (particularly in black or dark charcoal velvet) for white tie affairs. However, there seems to be conflicting information about appropriate neckwear for this jacket, particularly at white tie events, so I thought I would put this question out to the X Marks community. I did search the forum and found a number of helpful threads about this jacket vs others but this question I want to ask more specifically as it was not addressed as much in the threads I read. If I missed a thread, please point me in the correct direction and mea culpa.

Many sources seem to indicate that this jacket is only to be worn with a lace jabot and cuffs, period. Others (more recently) seem to indicate that it can be worn with bow ties as well, and more casual versions (of a rather formal jacket) have been worn with cravats, etc. To my eye, they all look great, but I am not a highland attire expert, just an experienced aficionado. I have been wearing my clan tartan with pride since 1996 when I did a semester abroad at St. Andrews when I was in college.

For me, I am not the biggest fan of the lace jabot and cuffs. I am secure in my masculinity and the issue is not feeling feminine, but rather too frilly and "froo-froo" for my personal taste (which may sound funny since I am considering the jacket in velvet but it's my honest gut reaction here), plus the lace at the cuffs and neck look like something I would probably stain horribly, catch/snag on something and rip, or set on fire accidentally while reaching across a candle on a table. I would prefer to avoid all that. Some pull it off well, but I suspect I am not among them.

So if I get a sheriffmuir and don't want to wear a lace jabot with it but rather a white bow tie, how improper is this? Is it ok? Would it be ok if I did so in Scotland? I'm not a big fan of wearing the kilt in a way that it would not be done in Scotland, but at the same time I am not just an old-school purist either... but I am all about avoiding faux-pas in my highland attire (see reasons that frilly lace are not good for me above) and am wondering what the experts here think. I do try and stick to the classic rules of thumb as much as possible because things that an American born guy like myself might think are minor changes may look completely askew to a man born and raised on Skye. And I like my Talisker a lot, so when I drink with that guy from Skye I want him to be impressed with my outfit rather than bothered by it.

I greatly appreciate any input.

Slainte (please pardon the absence of the proper fada here)

Nice to meet you all.

**BCAC** · 16th October 13, 05:14 AM

Hello. Welcome to XMarks.

I'm sorry, but I originally posted a rather lengthy reply about neckwear to be worn with a sheriffmuir before noticing that you were specifically asking about white tie neckwear. As my post, and the post by Matt Newsome which I was talking about, don't have anything to do with white tie neckwear, I deleted my comments. I'm sorry, I don't know anything about neckwear with sheriffmuir jackets at white tie events. On the rare white tie events that I attend I wear my Montrose doublet (with the jabot and cuffs). Please excuse me.

**Chas** · 16th October 13, 05:32 AM

I wear a lace jabot (but no cuffs) with my Sheriffmuir. I am looking to obtain a stock and stick-pin as an alternative.

When I am wearing my tails for white tie events, I will, of course, wear a white bow tie. But I think that a jabot or stock is more traditionally Scottish.

**BCAC** · 16th October 13, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Chas

I wear a lace jabot (but no cuffs) with my Sheriffmuir. I am looking to obtain a stock and stick-pin as an alternative.

When I am wearing my tails for white tie events, I will, of course, wear a white bow tie. But I think that a jabot or stock is more traditionally Scottish.

I must say, Chas, that I think that a stock looks good with a Sheriffmuir.

**MacCathmhaoil** · 16th October 13, 05:39 AM

I have a Sheriffmuir but I'm not a big fan of the Lacey jabot look, I have both silk stocks and silk cravats for wear with it. The stocks are similar to hunting stocks worn by those dressed for the fox hunt, the cravats are regency neck cloths that can be tied with a variety of different knots for different effect.

**MacCathmhaoil** · 16th October 13, 05:43 AM

Take a look at this vendor and you can get an idea of the type of Regency neck cloth I am referring to.
http://www.elegantascot.com

**BCAC** · 16th October 13, 05:47 AM

I think maybe the OP was not really asking what the alternatives are to the lace jabot and cuffs that are available to wear but specifically is it appropriate (ie the done thing) to wear these alternatives to a white tie event.

**sailortats** · 16th October 13, 05:53 AM

I have never attended a white tie event and and my question will no doubt prove that point. I know of Jabots and cravats, but what is a "stock"?

**Chas** · 16th October 13, 05:56 AM

One of the things to remember is that the Sheriffmuir is in effect a two part garment, usually worn with a high cut waistcoat (six button), usually round neck.

A full jabot will cover and hide the top of the waistcoat. A stock, bow tie or a cravat will not.

A Sheriffmuir can be worn without a waistcoat or with a three button waistcoat, but doesn't that defeat the object of wearing a Sheriffmuir?

**Chas** · 16th October 13, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by sailortats

I have never attended a white tie event and and my question will no doubt prove that point. I know of Jabots and cravats, but what is a "stock"?

Also called a 'Neck Cloth'. It is, what finally became a neck tie. Working ones were starched linen and dress ones were silk - mainly all white.

There used to be a great number of ways to tie a stock and some ways were only for certain levels of function. Again a Victorian invention to maintain a rigid social order.