A few thoughts on choice and selection: tartan, clans, etc.

[cessna152towser]

wearing a kilt in a tartan of a Regiment would be like wearing a Regimental tie/insignia/crest when one had never belonged to that Regiment, its something I would not do, possibly it is different when its a tartan ?

Not quite the same.
Black Watch was a Government Sett. I justify wearing my Black Watch kilt because I worked in local government for a number of years but anyone can wear it.
I wanted to wear the Royal Air Force tartan at an air museum where I am a volunteer, in honour of my late father who had served in the RAF from 1940 to 1946. I had been an ATC cadet but never signed up for full-time service. The fabric was only available from Strathmore Woollens and subject to approval of the RAF. I came to an agreement that I would be supplied with an RAF tartan kilt but that it would be pleated to the sett as a civilian kilt rather than pleated to the stripe as is more usual with a military kilt. One of our USA based members whose father was a fighter pilot in the RAF was allowed to have the fabric sent there and made up by a USA based kiltmaker pleated to the stripe, as it was unlikely he would ever wear it on the British Isles.

[Jock Scot]

When I say disrespectful, maybe I should have said that wearing a kilt in a tartan of a Regiment would be like wearing a Regimental tie/insignia/crest when one had never belonged to that Regiment, its something I would not do, possibly it is different when its a tartan ?

From a British point of view, Malcolm the same goes for a miltary tartan too. If you did not serve in that unit then you don't wear their unit attire. For example, I would no more wear a Royal Navy tie to honour my father than fly to the moon as I did not serve in the Senior service. In fact it would dishonour him if I did so, in my book. You will find that in the USA and perhaps less so in Canada the idea of wearing unit tartans etc.,and "honouring"a particular person or unit is the way that they----well at least some appear to----- do it over there, even if they themselves never actually served in that unit. There have been many threads on this subject and as far as I am aware the discussion has never been resolved. However there has been quite a lot of mutual understanding been built up over this issue, even if we do not agree.

[MacLowlife]

When I say disrespectful, maybe I should have said that wearing a kilt in a tartan of a Regiment would be like wearing a Regimental tie/insignia/crest when one had never belonged to that Regiment, its something I would not do, possibly it is different when its a tartan ?

Malcolm, at least as far back as Paul's Epistle to the Romans, people have had varying levels of conscience about what is and isn't prohibited behavior. My advice to you is to stay away from anything that makes you uncomfortable. In the US, not only do people regularly buy and wear "regimental" neckties, they also wear ties, belts, hatbands, etc, that are striped in the patterns of regimental ties ( the Guards) without even recognizing them as such. I gather such is not the case in the UK, and if you are uneasy considering a regimental (or school) necktie even though you like the colours, then I expect you would be uneasy wearing any other form of regimental colours.

Now, I do believe a special case can be made for the Black Watch, but even there, I do not think anyone here would find you squeamish if you chose to stay away. BW is considered a Universal Tartan and is linked with the government and Clan Campbell, not just the regiment. I believe many other regimental tartans have specific family or clan links ( KOSB- Leslie, Gordon Highlanders, Royal Scots, etc.). But, as I say, the BW seems to have reached a different level in many people's minds.

Finally, we "Yanks" are not without some scruples regarding uniforms. While few people shy from wearing the various forms of camouflage fatigues, or Government Issue Khaki trousers ( if we could find them) it is not often that you will find some civilian wearing, say, a dress tunic or headgear. Regimental associations and official subtle signifiers are not a part of our culture. We are not trained to think that every person wearing a Giants shirt or cap or jacket actually plays or played football. Few schools and universities have official ties. Many college sports fans did not attend the schools they support. Our Marines are particular about their heraldry, and certain groups (Airborne Rangers, for example) enjoy a well deserved respect, but overall, the average American is barely able to identify members of the various branches of service, much less distinguish rank, regiment, etc.

[Father Bill]

From a British point of view, Malcolm the same goes for a miltary tartan too. If you did not serve in that unit then you don't wear their unit attire. For example, I would no more wear a Royal Navy tie to honour my father than fly to the moon as I did not serve in the Senior service. In fact it would dishonour him if I did so, in my book. You will find that in the USA and perhaps less so in Canada the idea of wearing unit tartans etc.,and "honouring"a particular person or unit is the way that they----well at least some appear to----- do it over there, even if they themselves never actually served in that unit. There have been many threads on this subject and as far as I am aware the discussion has never been resolved. However there has been quite a lot of mutual understanding been built up over this issue, even if we do not agree.

You're generous, Jock. I'm Canadian; I'm leery of the thought.

[Liam]

You're generous, Jock. I'm Canadian; I'm leery of the thought.

I was considering a similar response to our friend Jock, but you beat me to it....
Slainte to you both...Bill

[Jock Scot]

I was considering a similar response to our friend Jock, but you beat me to it....
Slainte to you both...Bill

Bill, Liam I have run out of "ayes", but as Canada has closer historical connections to Britian, I have always thought that our military traditions have been fairly similar in general and I think they are. On occassion, I must admit that I have been surprised when a Canadian(and even a Brit.) has voiced the more "American" point of view about a civilian wearing military attire and insignia.

Whilst those "American" views do not rest easily in my mind and many from the UK and Commonwealth too, I accept that those views do exist widely within the USA and differ quite markedly from ours, nevertheless, they are genuinely and legitimately held and no disrespect is intended in any form whatsoever.

[Spartan Tartan]

Just to perhaps prevent too much over-generalization... I happen to be an American that currently serves in our military. I will tell you that within the U.S. a great few individuals actually serve our Nation's military. This suggests to me that many people do not understand from the service member's point of view what it means to some units to "earn" their membership. Personally, I would discourage and suggest NOT to wear anything from a military unit that you did not (or do not currently) serve in.

For example, the 82nd Airborne is a large and popular unit. If I see someone wearing an 82nd Airborne patch, I expect that they themself served in that unit...not their parent or grandparent. If I find that they did NOT serve, I think that to be inappropriate. I would not say anything outright, because that could be rude and I do not wish to offend. However, if someone asked me if they should wear it because their grandfather was in the 82nd and jumped into Nomandy during WWII, I would say NO. There are plenty of t-shirts that say, "I love my granpa!", feel free to wear one of those.

I wear my dad's (and his dad's before him) jump wings. I do honor them by doing so. However, I went to jump school and earned those wings for myself--certainly not the same as the preceeding discussion. Had I not earned the right to wear Jump wings on my own, I would not (nor would I suggest any did) wear jump wings as a sign of honor for my dad and grandad. Just knowing what it took for them to earn those, I would find it ironically disrespectful to them to wear the wings they so rightly earned.

Just because people in the U.S. do like to wear things to honor their families, does not mean that we all widely approve of it. Ask my son if he could/would wear any of my military ensignia to "honor me" to school one day and he will tell you, "No. Those are my dad's."

And since this thread is actually about family tartans... my son will also wear the kilt I tell him to wear since it is the one our family wears. When he is old enough to buy his own, then he can do as he wishes. Although, I doubt he would wear something different from me.

[Jock Scot]

I hear what you say Spartan Tartan and can relate to what you say in many respects.

[tripleblessed]

I think many in the US, like me, would never wear military issue with insignia and/or rank affixed. In my family, somewhere between many and most of the men serve, and some of the women. I missed out because of damage incurred as an adventurous teen. Though I've never been formally told to do it this way or that, or that something just isn't done, I've always felt that was theirs. In the late 60s into the 70s, many of my friends shopped in military surplus stores due to cost/value necessities. I had no problem there when insignia was removed, and the UK posts here mentioning someone's first kilt being military surplus leads me to believe attitudes are actually fairly similar. I will grant there may be a higher level of ignorance on this side of the pond due to numbers, as mentioned above.

[Jock Scot]

In my youth the Highlands were populated by many retired and serving military men, much more so than now. Anyway, I well remember them sending more than one misguided soul, who had ignored warnings, home, wrapped in a hessian potato sack when they had left home wearing a military kilt that they were not entitled to. Things have changed, but not by much.

There was one exception that was tollerated. A funeral of a member of the family where Sunday best suits were not an option, then Grand father's Black watch kilt(he had served in the Regiment), for example, would be sometimes worn. Not so much out of respect for Grand father, but more out of respect for the recently departed, where the best attire that could be found was worn. After the event the kilt went straight back into storage.

I think many are unaware that "universal" as far as the Black Watch tartan is concerned does not mean worldwide universal it means UK Government "universal" for the British Army. It still does for many of us.