Seeking more opinions about White Tie and a velvet Sheriffmuir

[CeilidhDoc]

I would like to thank everyone that contributed to my last thread on this matter ( http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...doublet-81363/ ) as the input was immensely helpful.

I think I have settled on a decision to get a black velvet Sheriffmuir doublet and vest for white tie functions. However, after thinking this through more, I seem to have solved the neckwear dilemma but run into 2 others about which I would like to solicit opinions. Thanks in advance for any comments.

The first issue I cannot find anything about after some searching but it is quite straightforward:

To have a doublet / jacket made in velvet is very formal. Also very formal is to wear a fly plaid with a brooch. Pair the two together and you are pinning velvet with a brooch frequently. Seems to me this will destroy velvet rather quickly. For those who have had to deal with this issue, how do you get around it?

The second issue seems to be something of a debate here but I want a bit of clarification. If you get a black velvet Sheriffmuir doublet and a matching black velvet waistcoat, can this be worn together to a white tie event? Or must one reserve a second matched waistcoat in white for white tie functions? If so, should it be velvet as well? Silk? Pique? Other?

Some opinions on other threads have been expressed, such as:

"It's All About Conforming, Not Showing Off

White tie is just that, white tie, and the rules are the same whether kilted or in tails.

FORMAL WHITE SHIRT WITH WING COLLAR;
WHITE WAISTCOAT;
WHITE TIE;
TARTAN HOSE or DICED HOSE or BLACK HOSE;
DRESS SPORRAN (silver mounted);
BLACK EVENING JACKET (Prince Charlie coatee);
BLACK EVENING SHOES (well polished plain black shoes; NO brogues).

As previously stated, do not wear your bonnet, and do not wear your plaid. When you can afford to up-grade your sporran, do so. Either one of those silver mounted fur things or a long horse hair or goat hair sporran is appropriate for white tie.

While living in Europe I attended (on average) six white tie dinners a year, plus two or three white tie balls. I did this every year for nearly twenty one years, so I probably have more real world experience than anyone else on this forum.

The whole purpose of formal attire is to blend in, not stand out. You are supposed to look like everyone else, but be remembered for your wit, charm, and intellect. If you stand out because of the way you are dressed, you will be mocked, not admired.

Like I said, it's all about conforming. And doing it so well that you are admired for it."

at this thread: http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ite-tie-35057/

but I have seen other sources that seem to imply that the matching (in my case black) velvet waistcoat is also high formality. What do you all think? We touched a bit on the white waistcoat with the Black velvet jacket on my first thread, but did not get specific about if this was the only appropriate way to go for a white tie affair.

Slainte

[Liam]

When I wear a fly plaid, which is rarely, I pin the plaid to my epaulet with a safety pin, and pin the broach to the end of the fly plaid as a weight.

Bill

[CeilidhDoc]

That's a creative solution. Do you find that the weight on the end of the dangling plaid becomes a nuisance with swinging about? I worry a bit about it making me look like a grandfather clock but perhaps if the brooch is heavy enough it would stay plumbed straight down unless you were dancing.

Thanks for that.

[Carlo]

To have a doublet / jacket made in velvet is very formal. Also very formal is to wear a fly plaid with a brooch. Pair the two together and you are pinning velvet with a brooch frequently. Seems to me this will destroy velvet rather quickly. For those who have had to deal with this issue, how do you get around it?

This little film by Rocky might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xH44F9o25U

No experiance with white tie, but I think a black waistcoat with the black Sheriffmuir would look great.

[Jock Scot]

By leaving the wholly un-necessary fly plaid off, will solve one problem.

A Prince Charlie coatee, is not and never will be, suitable for a white tie event.

With a sheriffmuir, particularly a velvet one, then a matching velvet waistcoat is absolutely fine. I used to wear a tartan waistcoat cut on the bias with mine many years ago. Whilst there is nothing wrong with a white waistcoat, I think there are better choices.

I would avoid black hose at a white tie event if I were you. This sort of event is exactly the place to wear patterned hose.

Again whilst plain well polished shoes will get you by, this is the time to bring out the buckles! A good pair of buckled "Mary Janes" are and will fit the bill nicely.

If you must wear a dirk, then this is the time to wear it. However, like the fly plaid, they are a real bind to wear and the thought of wearing both at the same time, just boggles my mind!

[CeilidhDoc]

Thanks for that as well. Perhaps this is the norm then? There's 2 votes that the pin goes only through the plaid and not at all through the jacket. Perhaps I'm just an idiot for thinking it would be pinned to the jacket. I was picturing having to have a special tunnel pocket for the brooch pin sewn into the jacket and it seemed very complicated but perhaps I was just ignorant about to what the brooch is pinned. I could have sworn I saw people all doing it with the pin through the jacket but I guess the real issue is having a brooch large enough not to swing much and affixing it high enough on the plaid to render the issue moot anyway. Greatly appreciate the input.

Now about the waistcoat....

Slainte

[Jock Scot]

Post deleted. Dual post.

[CeilidhDoc]

Yes, my imagined outfit with this is kilt with formal sporran, diced or argyle hose to match the tartan colors, black patent buckle highland shoes, Regency cravat or Jabot tie, Black velvet Sheriffmuir with debate open here on the appropriate vest as per my question (thanks for the first opinion on the waistcoat Jock Scot), and plus or minus the fly plaid, plus or minus a dirk. I'm not a regular dirk wearer but some sources seem to say that white tie is the time to bust it out so I'll include it here. And of course a formal sgian dubh, pocket watch, etc.

Personally, I would prefer to wear a matching black velvet waistcoat if this is acceptable. However I see many sources that say the only option is a white one for white tie, with some divergent opinions, and I want to know how large the population of divergent opinions actually is.

I'm just trying to nail down the particulars as I have never worn a doublet before and I don't want to make a mess of it at a white tie event in the USA where I may be the only person representing highland attire (better do it right if you are the only one in the room!). I have a PC coatee for black tie but I have never needed anything for white tie until recently and would not think of wearing the PC to a white tie event personally. So now I'm out for the appropriate highland attire and this is where I have landed.

Again, thanks to all for the comments, input, opinions.

Slainte

[MacRobert's Reply]

Fly plaids are rarely seen at formal events this side of the pond, especially if dancing is involved! The waistcoat with a Sheriffmuir doublet is normally high cut and may match the doublet or be a variety of colours or tartan. I have matching black velvet, cream silk and tartan silk. I have seen cream/putty in a variety of fabrics, red wool, and tartan wool. I favour silk as in centrally-heated venues two layers of velvet can be rather warm.

[CeilidhDoc]

Thanks for chiming in. I was hoping to hear from you since you have this jacket and own all the above waistcoats. I was wondering if you had the white one because you felt it was necessary for white tie or if you just like having a variety of options. They all look good (having seen your photos) but what you said is a good way to put it. I suppose the high velvet vest would take the place of the closed front on a Montrose, for instance, and perhaps I should think of it like that instead of as a separate traditional waistcoat when it comes to the "white tie requires a white waistcoat" line of thinking. I'm gearing up to order the doublet and vest and wanted to make sure I didn't need to order something else at the same time to remain proper.

I guess the last question then is how many buttons to have on the vest. I am assuming at least 5, but Kinloch Anderson seems to advocate for a 7 button vest, and I have seen your 6 button white vest look good as well. How much play is there with this in regards to the Sheriffmuir? Maybe I am just overthinking it but with the Jabot or a cravat it would seem that perhaps higher is better for a cleaner look and not much (if any) shirt showing other than the collar and a small framing around the necktie... although with either a jabot or a regency cravat the presentation of the neckwear is large enough that I can't imagine much shirt being visible either way.

You all have my gratitude.

Slainte