Approved arms for the Tennessee Valley Scottish Society.

[Woot22]

Looks amazing, I need to check out the society you made this for. I would love to join a St. Andrews society but we completely lack one here in Middle Tennessee. You would think a city the size of Nashville, while not huge is still pretty good sized, would have one of its own. But sense it does not I have been on the look out for another organization to join.

[Harold Cannon]

You would be more than welcome as part of our society. We are based in Huntsville Alabama.

[BCAC]

Nice work, Harold. You say approved arms? Approved by who? Only yourselves? If this is so, do you have sufficient funds available to be able to get them officially approved?

Being a "know very little" about this subject, I was lead to believe that "officialising" arms was a costly business and also that arms are not delivered to families or clans but soley to individuals. How come a family or a clan cannot get arms, but a Scottish society can?

I know none of the "rules and regulations" behind the granting of arms and I'm curious.

Will it be useful for your society to have these arms? Thanks in advance.

You are a talented man, sir.

[creagdhubh]

Nice work, Harold. You say approved arms? Approved by who? Only yourselves? If this is so, do you have sufficient funds available to be able to get them officially approved?

Being a "know very little" about this subject, I was lead to believe that "officialising" arms was a costly business and also that arms are not delivered to families or clans but soley to individuals. How come a family or a clan cannot get arms, but a Scottish society can?

I know none of the "rules and regulations" behind the granting of arms and I'm curious.

Will it be useful for your society to have these arms? Thanks in advance.

You are a talented man, sir.

The Clan Macpherson Association was granted Arms by the Lord Lyon (Lyon Register Vol. 79 Page 17). The Clan Macpherson Association shield is quarterly "gold and blue," the Cluny livery colours, charged with well known symbols of Cluny's Arms and surrounded by an "Annulet" representing a "Society" or "circle of friendship."

Crest: "A golden wildcat" in the traditional posture used by the Association since its inception in 1947.

[BCAC]

The Clan Macpherson Association was granted Arms by the Lord Lyon (Lyon Register Vol. 79 Page 17). The Clan Macpherson Association shield is quarterly "gold and blue," the Cluny livery colours, charged with well known symbols of Cluny's Arms and surrounded by an "Annulet" representing a "Society" or "circle of friendship."

Crest: "A golden wildcat" in the traditional posture used by the Association since its inception in 1947.

I'm sorry Kyle but this post doesn't answer my question at all. You "bolded" (is that a word?) half my question and then proceeded to post a confirmation that "The Clan Macpherson ASSOCIATION" has been granted arms by the Lord Lyon.

What I don't understand is why a clan or a family cannot be awarded arms but an ASSOCIATION can.

To be perfectly clear, you showed me the arms that were granted to the Clan Macpherson ASSOCIATION. It seems to me that you posted to try and prove that your clan had been granted arms by the Lord Lyon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but theses arms were not granted to the Clan Macpherson as a clan were they, but to the clan ASSOCIATION?

What is confusing is that I was lead to believe that arms were granted to individuals to be able to be recognised on the field of battle and that, to avoid the confusion of having several examples of the same arms on the battlefield, they were always granted individually. I was also lead to believe that that was still the case today, hence my confusion.

Have the "rules" for the granting of arms by the Lord Lyon been changed to allow these granting of arms to Clan Associations/societies now?

If that is the case maybe that is good news for Harold, who can now (if his association/society has enough funds to be able to finance this projet) proceed to get their arms officially recognised and registered by the Lord Lyon.

I'm simply asking for clarification as to the "rules and regulations for the grant of arms", that's all. I'm just a wee bit confused by all this but it is interesting.

[creagdhubh]

I'm sorry Kyle but this post doesn't answer my question at all. You "bolded" (is that a word?) half my question and then proceeded to post a confirmation that "The Clan Macpherson ASSOCIATION" has been granted arms by the Lord Lyon.

What I don't understand is why a clan or a family cannot be awarded arms but an ASSOCIATION can.

To be perfectly clear, you showed me the arms that were granted to the Clan Macpherson ASSOCIATION. It seems to me that you posted to try and prove that your clan had been granted arms by the Lord Lyon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but theses arms were not granted to the Clan Macpherson as a clan were they, but to the clan ASSOCIATION?

What is confusing is that I was lead to believe that arms were granted to individuals to be able to be recognised on the field of battle and that, to avoid the confusion of having several examples of the same arms on the battlefield, they were always granted individually. I was also lead to believe that that was still the case today, hence my confusion.

Have the "rules" for the granting of arms by the Lord Lyon been changed to allow these granting of arms to Clan Associations/societies now?

If that is the case maybe that is good news for Harold, who can now (if his association/society has enough funds to be able to finance this projet) proceed to get their arms officially recognised and registered by the Lord Lyon.

I'm simply asking for clarification as to the "rules and regulations for the grant of arms", that's all. I'm just a wee bit confused by all this but it is interesting.

As far as the Macphersons are concerned, the clan is the association and vice versa. The Clan Macpherson Association isn't some sort of separate entity from the clan as a whole. Sure, there are indeed individual Macphersons who are elected into positions of leadership (some born, such as the Chief and Chieftains) within the organisation and structure of the Association, yet they are still Macpherson clansmen and clanswomen of the worldwide, extended family that is the Clan Macpherson. However, I do understand where you are coming from and I think from the Lyon Court perspective, the Lord Lyon can grant Arms to a specific society, company or association. Is this all a matter of semantics? I don't know. I'm a bit confused about the issue myself!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Nice work, Harold. You say approved arms? Approved by who? Only yourselves? If this is so, do you have sufficient funds available to be able to get them officially approved?

Being a "know very little" about this subject, I was lead to believe that "officialising" arms was a costly business and also that arms are not delivered to families or clans but soley to individuals. How come a family or a clan cannot get arms, but a Scottish society can?

I know none of the "rules and regulations" behind the granting of arms and I'm curious.

Will it be useful for your society to have these arms? Thanks in advance.

You are a talented man, sir.

You are right insofar as Arms may only be granted to an individual, for example the chief of a clan. Arms may also be granted to "companies", that is assemblies of persons brought together for a single, common purpose. Examples would be arms granted to medieval guilds (The Guild of Goldsmiths), or to modern corporations (The British Broadcasting Corporation). The same is true of "clan societies". Once they have a legal corporate structure they are viewed, for heraldic purposes, as a "corporation sole" and can be granted arms. However, without that corporate status binding them together a grant of arms is not possible because there is no one entity to whom the arms can be granted.

Arms granted to corporate bodies (and this includes clan societies) belong to the corporate body and may not be used by individual members of that body, except in an official capacity.

Individual members of clans and families may have arms, and those arms are usually -- although not always -- based on the arms of the head of the family or chief of the clan. So while there is no such a thing as "clan" or "family" arms (one coat of arms used by every member of the clan or family) every member of a clan or family is entitled to arms, if they so desire them.

Hope that answers the question!

Scott
MoR

[creagdhubh]

You are right insofar as Arms may only be granted to an individual, for example the chief of a clan. Arms may also be granted to "companies", that is assemblies of persons brought together for a single, common purpose. Examples would be arms granted to medieval guilds (The Guild of Goldsmiths), or to modern corporations (The British Broadcasting Corporation). The same is true of "clan societies". Once they have a legal corporate structure they are viewed, for heraldic purposes, as a "corporation sole" and can be granted arms. However, without that corporate status binding them together a grant of arms is not possible because there is no one entity to whom the arms can be granted.

Arms granted to corporate bodies (and this includes clan societies) belong to the corporate body and may not be used by individual members of that body, except in an official capacity.

Individual members of clans and families may have arms, and those arms are usually -- although not always -- based on the arms of the head of the family or chief of the clan. So while there is no such a thing as "clan" or "family" arms (one coat of arms used by every member of the clan or family) every member of a clan or family is entitled to arms, if they so desire them.

Hope that answers the question!

Scott
MoR

Thanks, Scott! A very clear and concise answer that makes complete sense.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Looks amazing, I need to check out the society you made this for. I would love to join a St. Andrews society but we completely lack one here in Middle Tennessee. You would think a city the size of Nashville, while not huge is still pretty good sized, would have one of its own. But sense it does not I have been on the look out for another organization to join.

You might want to contact The Scottish Society of Middle Tennessee, located in Brentwood, Tn.

[Woot22]

You might want to contact The Scottish Society of Middle Tennessee, located in Brentwood, Tn.

Thanks, I will check them out, they are even closer to me than Harold's association down in Alabama. I live north west of Nashville so this may work out nicely. Thanks again.