Seeking more opinions about White Tie and a velvet Sheriffmuir

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

With a velvet Sheriffmuir I'd suggest a seven-button black grosgrain silk waistcoat that buttons to the throat would be your best choice (not as hot as a velvet waistcoat). I'd also suggest that you have the turn backs (the Argyll-style "bucket" cuffs) done in black grosgrain silk as well. My preference for a shirt (and tie) would be one with a wing collar and a very full lace jabot. With a Sheriffmuir jacket you will want the sleeves somewhat shorter than on a regulation doublet or Prince Charile coatee to accommodate lace cuffs, which should fall mid-way between your wrist and knuckles. It is best to have the lace cuffs attached to the inside of the sleeve, either by small snaps, or by velcro. Since most shirts with attached wing collars come with French cuffs, I tend to buy them with an extra 2-inches of sleeve length. I then have the cuffs removed and a simple button placed at the wrist. This allows for much better freedom of movement. If you are wearing the Sheriffmuir at a black tie event, then you can dispense with the lace cuffs and wear a wing collar shirt with French cuffs-- the jabot is worn with black as well as white tie.

Something that I think looks quite smart with a Sheriffmuir is a silk brocade waistcoat, or a tartan waistcoat cut on the bias-- both really "lift" the look of the outfit.

Black tie or white tie, diced, argyle, or tartan hose really are de rigueur. Formal evening shoes (with either buckles or bows) should be worn. If you don't have formal evening shoes then a pair of highly polished black oxfords (not wingtips) will do every bit as well. Ghillie brogues should be avoided for formal or evening wear.

[MacLowlife]

You ought to try this with some other jacket before committing to doing it with your velvet sheriffmuir, but I expect you might be able to run the fly plaid through your epaulette and then pin the broach through the plaid AND some trick appendage attached to your breast pocket. As I say this, I am reminded of a popular "custom tailored" trick of days gone by: the pocket lining that can be pulled out to look like a handkerchief. I am not advocating that, but what if you had your tailor sew a button or velcro inside the pocket? The button could be used to secure a velvet flap ( or the flap could simply be sewn into the pocket) that could be deployed specifically for purposes of pinning the plaid/ brooch. Once you lose interest in the plaid, you either unbutton the flap- extension or tuck it back inside the pocket. All of this takes a little finagling and it assumes the presence of such a pocket, which none of the doublets I have looked at include. But the pocket itself is no big deal- most other formal jackets include a breast pocket of some description. You'd have to be certain that the upward flipped flap showed velvet and that it was stiff and large enough to hold the brooch. Again, the real securing would probably be elsewhere, such as the epaulette.... The whole flap rig is concealed by the tail end of the plaid and the brooch. And, as mentioned before, it tucks in or unhooks when you don't need it. But when you do, it takes that pin hole instead of the front of your doublet.

As for the waistcoat, I think MacMillan has an excellent point about the warmth, but I expect it would look very good and entirely appropriate. AND, being a waistcoat, you could always abandon it the next time out in favor of one of the many excellent suggestions above...

[MacLowlife]

Even if you do not mess with the plaid, I think a breast pocket is a great place for a white handkerchief- something I try to wear anytime I have on any tie at all. Again, I wil freely admit that I can't find a single picture of a sheriffmuir that has a breast pocket, but I can't find a lot of things.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

In the more than three-score years I've worn a kilt, I've only once worn a plaid, and that was when I got married. The end of the plaid passed under the epaulette and was secured in place by a loop that slipped over the button on the end of the epaulette. The plaid-brooch was then attached to the plaid, high up on the shoulder, the pin passing through two loops sewn onto the plaid.

[CeilidhDoc]

Thanks for all the input everyone. These are all really good thoughts to take into consideration.

Slainte

[MacRobert's Reply]

I was wondering if you had the white one because you felt it was necessary for white tie or if you just like having a variety of options.

I just like the cream silk. Really any colour would do and a matching waistcoat is fine.

I guess the last question then is how many buttons to have on the vest. I am assuming at least 5, but Kinloch Anderson seems to advocate for a 7 button vest, and I have seen your 6 button white vest look good as well.

The cream silk and tartan silk waistcoats both have six buttons. The matching black velvet one only five. To look right with a jabot or cravat, the waistcoat needs to be cut with a high neckline, so six or seven buttons will do the job. I am only 5'7" tall so six are sufficient for me. I use the five button matching waistcoat to dress down and wear the doublet with a black bow tie but a higher cut matching waistcoat would be equally appropriate for white tie.

How much play is there with this in regards to the Sheriffmuir? Maybe I am just overthinking it but with the Jabot or a cravat it would seem that perhaps higher is better for a cleaner look and not much (if any) shirt showing other than the collar and a small framing around the necktie... although with either a jabot or a regency cravat the presentation of the neckwear is large enough that I can't imagine much shirt being visible either way.

I think you have the thinking right on this. Little shirt should show at the neck, and no shirt should show at the front with a jabot or cravat. The waistcoat needs to be high enough so that, together, the waistcoat and the jabot or cravat if worn outside the waistcoat cover the shirt front completely - no gap between bottom of jabot or cravat and waistcoat. However, if the cravat is worn inside the waistcoat the neckline of the waistcoat needs to be cut to expose the amount of cravat you want to show - a matter of personal taste.

[Phil]

Just for clarification as you asked originally about correct "white tie" wear this is what would be regarded as appropriate in Highland dress -


You have obviously decided on a Sheriffmuir, however, which is an excellent choice and a favourite of mine for a number of reasons, not least of which is it is worn open and so is cooler and, perhaps more important, is more forgiving of an expanding waistline!

Here are a few different ones -
Casual


formal


more formal


I know you don't like a jabot but a bow tie just doesn't look right with this jacket. A Kenmore in velvet might suit you better -

[CeilidhDoc]

Wow. Thank you all so much. Again, I really appreciate all of your comments.

And about the Jabot... I'm warming up to it. I found the one that is offered through Joannie Newsome and decided to bite the bullet. It looks way less frilly and sits flatter than most while remaining traditional. I think I can pull it off. I guess I will just have to see. I got it with the cuffs per the advice here so thanks again. Now once I get the jacket and vest I can go for the "make no waves" jabot and cuffs or tweak it if the crowd might be more forgiving and use the regency cravat as an alternative plus then I would have an alternative to my PC for black tie depending on how I'm feeling and what the temperature is like.

One last question I have (with no rush!) relates to tartan waistcoats. Are they always done in wool tartan? Or do people also have them made in silk? For instance, Dalgliesh can weave most tartans they offer in a variety of wool weights as well as silk with the same colors for an exact match. I would imagine that the silk would be much less hot indoors. Of course, I also imagine that the silk would be far less easy to come by and far more expensive, as well as primarily being made for women's clothing but perhaps I am wrong here and people use it for waistcoats... which is why I am asking. I'm just thinking out loud here, as I have never seen silk in tartan patterns in person but for a waistcoat maybe it makes sense if its vaguely affordable (this is all relative, of course).

Slainte

[MacRobert's Reply]

While most of the tartan waistcoats I have seen are wool, a few, including mine, are silk. The fabric is readily available in the UK. Just Google "dupion tartan silk". I purchased mine so long ago that I don't recall the price.

[CeilidhDoc]

Well I looked and looked but it would appear that for either of my tartan kilts (Lamont Modern and Lamont Dress Reproduction) the only way to get a silk version is to custom order from Dalgliesh the silk first and then have the waistcoat made, at $900 minimum order each. Ouch. Apparently my clan doesn't have enough surviving ancestors to create demand for standard stocked silk versions of the tartan. Must have been that pesky Dunoon massacre or something. Either that or a minimum number of ancestors can afford the silk.

These outfits can get quite expensive quite fast if you have a less common tartan. I suppose somewhere down the line I can have the silk done with enough so that my sons can have waistcoats made when they are grown or something. In the end that will be worth it.

Slainte