so this is what we've come to? (Prince Charlie)

[BCAC]

Short answer, a wedding is the "Bride's Day!". The groom is merely an accessory. In my circle of friends most were told to 'dress up, show up and shut up'. The only things a groom needs remember is how to say is "Yes dear" and "I do".

Ask Father Bill, I bet he could tell some doozies.

Nope. Not for me. It's not only the bride's day. It's a wedding and a wedding is between two people, who both have a mind and an opinion and things that they want to share. So "dress up, show up and shut up" is maybe what it means for some people, but certainly not for me!

[Laird_M]

Totally agree with BCAC.
When I married my lovely wife, it was OUR day. WE planned it. WE ordered the flowers. WE made the cake. WE made the candles. WE got married.
OK, I planned and booked our honeymoon, and paid for it, but that's a groom's prerogative.

[OC Richard]

The PC It is still around!

It may be worn differently than it was 75 years ago, but it is still a part of current fashion. How marvelous is that?

Myself, I can't muster much enthusiasm for the current omnipresence of the Prince Charlie. For one thing it's a 20th century invention so it doesn't have much in the way of tradition on its side. For another thing it has got so popular that it is dominating Evening Dress, shoving to the side not only the one old Evening jacket which has survived since the mid 19th century (the Doublet, what we nowadays call the Regulation Doublet) but also all the other Evening jackets which appeared around the same time as the Prince Charlie (the Sherrifmuir, the Montrose, the Kenmore).

The jacket that I'm pleased is still around is the Doublet, which was by far the most popular civilian Highland Evening jacket in the 2nd half of the 19th century up until it took a back seat to the suite of new jackets that were devised in the early 20th century. I'm impressed whenever I see one, for example when Gordon Walker wears one in a sea of Prince Charlies.

It would be nice if people could mix up their Prince Charlies a bit and wear green ones and blue ones and get away from black for a minute. (Note that no black Evening jackets are shown in the Anderson 1936 catalogue.)

[Laird_M]

When I finally get the courage up to make my PC, it will be green to suit my kilts.

[Creag]

I can think of one partially redeeming possibility - he might be left handed. Is it allowed to wear your Sgian Dubh on the side of your dominant hand?

[Pleater]

I'm left handed but carry small weapons on my right side, as I found that I either had an axe or part of someone's anatomy to occupy my left hand. It really used to annoy people who had carefully sussed out my handedness before the event. I likewise used to wait until the opposing team had organised fielding for a left hander before revealing that although I bowl left arm over the wicket, I bat right handed.

I do find that the older shaping of sleeves looks smarter - modern sleeves tend to be longer, covering down to the joint of the thumb and the shirt cuff then reaching the knuckles, rather than the wrist bone with half an inch of cuff. The modern armhole is deeper, and the creases over the upper arm tend to be diagonal where the older style creased more vertically into the upper part of the sleeve cap.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[MacLowlife]

Could it be that, on a good day, more people visit this forum than wore doublets 75 years ago? I do not know, but I wouldn't be surprised. And presumably, there are still a few people wearing kilts who are not part of Our Happy Few (XMarkers). We need to recognize that popularizing anything, particularly evening wear, is almost always going to involve a loss of subtlety and ( by definition) exclusivity. Unfortunately, the masses can't afford what the Rich Folk can. And all of those catalogues are aimed at Rich Folk. If you really want to think about what it has come to, consider the humble pleated blanket, belted around the middle and pinned in place- and now look at those sleek headed gents with tailor-made cigarettes and silver buttons and so on. Kinloch Anderson might have dreamed of a nation of Coatee wearers, but the only way it was going to happen was by decreasing quality- and distinction.

Take a look at photos of some black tie event 75 years ago, and then look at prom pictures from this century. Sure, part of the decline is our civilization's steady progress towards you-know-where in a handbasket, but part of it is the expansion of the idea of Who Gets To Dress Up. Is it a coincidence that clothing made in the Worker's Paradises of late 20th century Central Europe was uniformly boxy and ill-fitting?

I will grant- the retailers of kilts and accessories have changed the way they sell. Their numbers have increased and they can't be relied on any more as guardians of good taste. Good taste always has been a small market, relative to the vast majority of consumers. But the rest of it- the downward spiral of pricing and quality, the expansion of what is considered correct, the increasing number of sad missteps- isn't that just the nature of democracy? Look again at Cab Calloway's white tailcoat and then at your average teenaged lout. What makes a person look better than most is that the others look worse.

I am pretty sure the OP just wanted to show how things change, not to inspire me to rant about The End Of The World As We Know It. And I didn't even mention white hose.

oops.

[McMurdo]

You know you don't have to send a fortune or buy everything all at once. In fact I think that is part of the problem here. For me anyway the best way to get a formal outfit together was as Johnny Cash would say One piece at a time. Another thought if you feel quality has suffered of late is to purchase vintage pieces, remember ebay is your friend. Below is a photo of my white tie outfit. The doublet and buckle shoes and sgian dubh were purchased on ebay, the sporran was from an ex-hire sale at a local tartan shop, the jabot and cuffs are from Lady Chrystel, the belt is one that I won from RKilts, the buckle was purchased on this forum and the hose and garter ties were purchased from the Scottish tartan museum. Finally the kilt itself was made for me by Barb Tewksbury. I can almost guarantee that this outfit cost less than the package deal, and the quality of my items is far superior to the type of stuff being produced these days.



Another thought is that this outfit, while it will fit in most any formal situation is not the cookie cutter outfit you will see everyone else wearing. Even in a room full of peacocks you can still stand out.

[KiltFitz]

I will grant- the retailers of kilts and accessories have changed the way they sell. Their numbers have increased and they can't be relied on any more as guardians of good taste. Good taste always has been a small market, relative to the vast majority of consumers. But the rest of it- the downward spiral of pricing and quality, the expansion of what is considered correct, the increasing number of sad missteps- isn't that just the nature of democracy? Look again at Cab Calloway's white tailcoat and then at your average teenaged lout. What makes a person look better than most is that the others look worse.

This is what I find sad because as an industry, kilt outlets used to be regarded as trustworthy purveyors of advice as well as garments. The experience being more like visiting a tailor who could tell you what suited you and how to look your best rather than a high street clothes store with fast-moving target-driven staff, who will say anything to achieve a sale. Admittedly, this is mostly the case with the newer, cheaper hire outlets but a number of the long established companies have followed suit rather than promote their expertise in quality and reliability.

I am amazed at the poor value that most hire outlets offer - I simply can not imagine any other product which you hire for less than 0.5% of its useful life, yet pay around a fifth of its brand new retail value. The only way that this can be achieved is by downgrading the product and hoodwinking the customer about quality. And yet, I see hire companies closing down all around me now so perhaps the bottom has finally fallen out of the industry. Unfortunately, the poor quality products have been left behind to haunt us.

Ok, so some people will always spend lots of money on expensive designer garments as a status symbol but that doesn't mean the only other option should be tat. That isn't a situation reflected in any other area of the fashion industry. High quality garments can be produced on a large scale - army kilts and sporrans are a good example of that.

(Just trying to imagine if Cab Calloway had performed in highland dress - that would have been some outfit, I'll bet.)

[Panache]

Richard,

Would you rather highland attire be a fashion and subject to new ideas and new looks or would you prefer it to be a historic costume?

The new highland stuff sells and is worn (for better or for worse depending on your point of view) and because it is still a viable fashion option it acts as a lifeline to the older styles and keeps them from being a costume. It is worth considering that traditional Highland attire options owes their current existence today because some enterprising companies were willing to try and offer something new to the next generations of customers.

Cheers

Jamie

Myself, I can't muster much enthusiasm for the current omnipresence of the Prince Charlie. For one thing it's a 20th century invention so it doesn't have much in the way of tradition on its side. For another thing it has got so popular that it is dominating Evening Dress, shoving to the side not only the one old Evening jacket which has survived since the mid 19th century (the Doublet, what we nowadays call the Regulation Doublet) but also all the other Evening jackets which appeared around the same time as the Prince Charlie (the Sherrifmuir, the Montrose, the Kenmore).

The jacket that I'm pleased is still around is the Doublet, which was by far the most popular civilian Highland Evening jacket in the 2nd half of the 19th century up until it took a back seat to the suite of new jackets that were devised in the early 20th century. I'm impressed whenever I see one, for example when Gordon Walker wears one in a sea of Prince Charlies.

It would be nice if people could mix up their Prince Charlies a bit and wear green ones and blue ones and get away from black for a minute. (Note that no black Evening jackets are shown in the Anderson 1936 catalogue.)