so this is what we've come to? (Prince Charlie)

[KiltFitz]

I will grant- the retailers of kilts and accessories have changed the way they sell. Their numbers have increased and they can't be relied on any more as guardians of good taste. Good taste always has been a small market, relative to the vast majority of consumers. But the rest of it- the downward spiral of pricing and quality, the expansion of what is considered correct, the increasing number of sad missteps- isn't that just the nature of democracy? Look again at Cab Calloway's white tailcoat and then at your average teenaged lout. What makes a person look better than most is that the others look worse.

This is what I find sad because as an industry, kilt outlets used to be regarded as trustworthy purveyors of advice as well as garments. The experience being more like visiting a tailor who could tell you what suited you and how to look your best rather than a high street clothes store with fast-moving target-driven staff, who will say anything to achieve a sale. Admittedly, this is mostly the case with the newer, cheaper hire outlets but a number of the long established companies have followed suit rather than promote their expertise in quality and reliability.

I am amazed at the poor value that most hire outlets offer - I simply can not imagine any other product which you hire for less than 0.5% of its useful life, yet pay around a fifth of its brand new retail value. The only way that this can be achieved is by downgrading the product and hoodwinking the customer about quality. And yet, I see hire companies closing down all around me now so perhaps the bottom has finally fallen out of the industry. Unfortunately, the poor quality products have been left behind to haunt us.

Ok, so some people will always spend lots of money on expensive designer garments as a status symbol but that doesn't mean the only other option should be tat. That isn't a situation reflected in any other area of the fashion industry. High quality garments can be produced on a large scale - army kilts and sporrans are a good example of that.

(Just trying to imagine if Cab Calloway had performed in highland dress - that would have been some outfit, I'll bet.)

[Nathan]

It's obvious from my own choice of formal attire that I prefer a doublet and diced hose but I don't think it's obvious from the OP's photo that the gentleman's outfit is "Tat"

If we assume that a PC is an acceptable choice, it would be fair to say that superior tailoring is preferable to shoddy work. But we can't anything about the quality of the PC and waistcoat from the photo.

It has been suggested that green and blue should be worn more, but that purple is a terrible choice. Not sure why this would be.

As far as PC not being traditional because it is a product of the early 20th century, consider this: 1930 was 83 years ago!
The battle of Culloden was only 268 years ago and King George IV visited Scotland 191 years ago.
The MacLeay portraits were painted in 1870 - (143 years ago. )

So there was less time between MacLeay and the KA catalogue (63 years) and the KA catalogue and today (83 years).

In my view, 83 years is around four generations and that is plenty of time to say a tradition has been established. My great, great, grandfather was born in 1905 and would have been the target age for the coatee in the Kinloch Anderson catalogue. My oldest brother is approaching 50 and I have nephews that are old enough to wear their own coatee.

So if the guy in the photo had sprung for tartan or diced hose instead of the belt and plaid, Bob's your uncle, right? He could have worn a jabot like the gents in the KA catalogue but many ridiculed Sir Sean for making that choice with the coatee. His kilt looks to be of fine quality but again, it's a photo.

I like diced hose and doublets and hair sporrans and many fancy things, but I am very happy to see more men being married kilted than ever before.

If I ran a kilt hire shop, there's no way I would be able to carry hundreds of tartans in hundreds of sizes for hire. That's why many people have their kilt made and just hire the accessories.

Some of it is a fashion choice. In my brother's wedding photo posted earlier, the only hired kit was the groom's PC and waistcoat, his rouche tie, and his plaid brooch.

Everything else in that photo belonged to the gentlemen wearing the attire, and was purchased because that is the contemporary look.





I have nothing hired in either of these photos. At the time, I owned two pairs of hose. Cream and green. I used to choose cream with my PC because it looked nicer with my white seal fur sporran to my eye and made the laces on my ghillie brogues stand out.

I wore the green with my brown leather sporran and tweed and I had never seen tartan hose on anyone except for female Highland Dancers and had only seen diced hose tops being worn with spats and a hair sporran in a military context.

I love that xmarks provides a view into the past and that OC Richard can post photos from the last two centuries to give us ideas on how to stand out in a crowd. I just think we should be careful when we malign the current fashion. A lot of men were married in that style and we shouldn't make them feel embarrased or ashamed of their wedding photos. They wore the kilt and did so according to contemporary standards and have every right to look at those photos with pride.

[Panache]

I love that xmarks provides a view into the past and that OC Richard can post photos from the last two centuries to give us ideas on how to stand out in a crowd. I just think we should be careful when we malign the current fashion. A lot of men were married in that style and we shouldn't make them feel embarrased or ashamed of their wedding photos. They wore the kilt and did so according to contemporary standards and have every right to look at those photos with pride.

YES!

Well said.

ith:

Jamie

[Phil]

This May be a bit difficult for many here who have just arrived recently and who see the Prince Charlie as the dress of choice. If I was to go back 60 years or so, the expected dress would be a Montrose doublet with a jabot but on the intervening years the Prince Charlie arrived and was a more comfortable alternative (with the introduction of Central heating). Some tailors dis have their own alternatives but they were largely variations on the doublet (Kenmore, Sheriffmuir etc.). This Forum has encouraged many people to experiment with their own ideas regarding Highland dress and this is not a bad thing. But if anyone wants to follow true Highland dress conventions then the likes of our much loved Jock Scott has all the answers. I too have a history going back 3 generations so have a little knowledge to add so if it is important to preserve these traditions then - just ask.

[Laird_M]

I think part of the issue here is that we have some members who are extremely knowledgeable about the traditional social mores of Highland dress, we all have our own tastes and sense of style and we're all pretty passionate about our kilts, which for me makes this a great place.

Yes traditions change and are created everyday, as pointed out above. For example, when did it become tradition to send 'Happy Easter' cards? I'm only 45 and we never had then when I was a kid, but now every newsagent and cardshop sells them and its becoming traditional to send them. A tradition that is maybe 20? 25yrs old if that.

[OC Richard]

I just think we should be careful when we malign the current fashion. A lot of men were married in that style and we shouldn't make them feel embarrased or ashamed of their wedding photos. They wore the kilt and did so according to contemporary standards and have every right to look at those photos with pride.

This is a valid point.

For the record I have never, and will never, criticise anyone's dress in their wedding photos. The photo in question was a professionally dressed and photographed model.

I saw, in a kilt hire shop in Glasgow, a large photo of a model wearing a nearly all-white outfit: white PC, white shirt, white tie, plain white kilt, white fur sporran with white tassels, white hose, white flashes, and... wait for it...
black ghillies!
Oh so near, but yet so far, to perfection. Where are white ghillies when you need them?

I rather doubt that anyone ever wore that outfit to an actual wedding; it was a photo-shoot getup.

For contrast, here's the Coatee in the current Anderson website, very akin to the way it appears in their 1936 catalogue, with tartan waistcoat



Classy, nearly timeless.

And they do show buckled brogues and tartan hose with Evening Dress

[sailortats]

Boy, I would love to have the blue velvet Montrose. There is only one minor problem, I would never have an occasion to wear it. Somehow it just wouldn't seem appropriate wearing it to the pub on a Saturday evening.

[Carlo]

Boy, I would love to have the blue velvet Montrose. There is only one minor problem, I would never have an occasion to wear it. Somehow it just wouldn't seem appropriate wearing it to the pub on a Saturday evening.

To me it looks like a pirat captain with the tricorn hat missing. (Might have something to do with me and the costume shop I went to yesterday.) And still I feel the same. It would be a great thing to own but the price per times worn would probably be at the price payed.

[Phil]

To me it looks like a pirat captain with the tricorn hat missing. (Might have something to do with me and the costume shop I went to yesterday.

If you are not accustomed to the particular look then it is quite understandable that you associate it with another similar example you may have seen in a fancy dress shop. I can assure you, however, that it appears quite normal Highland dress to someone brought up in Scotland this century. Whether it would be a good choice, however, does depend on your particular needs, particularly if you don't go to dress-up events. Also it is a particularly hot garment, made for the days before central heating!

[creagdhubh]

If you are not accustomed to the particular look then it is quite understandable that you associate it with another similar example you may have seen in a fancy dress shop. I can assure you, however, that it appears quite normal Highland dress to someone brought up in Scotland this century. Whether it would be a good choice, however, does depend on your particular needs, particularly if you don't go to dress-up events. Also it is a particularly hot garment, made for the days before central heating!

Well said, Phil.