so this is what we've come to? (Prince Charlie)

[Nathan]

It's obvious from my own choice of formal attire that I prefer a doublet and diced hose but I don't think it's obvious from the OP's photo that the gentleman's outfit is "Tat"

If we assume that a PC is an acceptable choice, it would be fair to say that superior tailoring is preferable to shoddy work. But we can't anything about the quality of the PC and waistcoat from the photo.

It has been suggested that green and blue should be worn more, but that purple is a terrible choice. Not sure why this would be.

As far as PC not being traditional because it is a product of the early 20th century, consider this: 1930 was 83 years ago!
The battle of Culloden was only 268 years ago and King George IV visited Scotland 191 years ago.
The MacLeay portraits were painted in 1870 - (143 years ago. )

So there was less time between MacLeay and the KA catalogue (63 years) and the KA catalogue and today (83 years).

In my view, 83 years is around four generations and that is plenty of time to say a tradition has been established. My great, great, grandfather was born in 1905 and would have been the target age for the coatee in the Kinloch Anderson catalogue. My oldest brother is approaching 50 and I have nephews that are old enough to wear their own coatee.

So if the guy in the photo had sprung for tartan or diced hose instead of the belt and plaid, Bob's your uncle, right? He could have worn a jabot like the gents in the KA catalogue but many ridiculed Sir Sean for making that choice with the coatee. His kilt looks to be of fine quality but again, it's a photo.

I like diced hose and doublets and hair sporrans and many fancy things, but I am very happy to see more men being married kilted than ever before.

If I ran a kilt hire shop, there's no way I would be able to carry hundreds of tartans in hundreds of sizes for hire. That's why many people have their kilt made and just hire the accessories.

Some of it is a fashion choice. In my brother's wedding photo posted earlier, the only hired kit was the groom's PC and waistcoat, his rouche tie, and his plaid brooch.

Everything else in that photo belonged to the gentlemen wearing the attire, and was purchased because that is the contemporary look.





I have nothing hired in either of these photos. At the time, I owned two pairs of hose. Cream and green. I used to choose cream with my PC because it looked nicer with my white seal fur sporran to my eye and made the laces on my ghillie brogues stand out.

I wore the green with my brown leather sporran and tweed and I had never seen tartan hose on anyone except for female Highland Dancers and had only seen diced hose tops being worn with spats and a hair sporran in a military context.

I love that xmarks provides a view into the past and that OC Richard can post photos from the last two centuries to give us ideas on how to stand out in a crowd. I just think we should be careful when we malign the current fashion. A lot of men were married in that style and we shouldn't make them feel embarrased or ashamed of their wedding photos. They wore the kilt and did so according to contemporary standards and have every right to look at those photos with pride.

[Detroitpete]

PS: For the record, while the young model's outfit might not be to my exact taste he still looks sharp to me. Should I see someone dressed like that at a formal function I would compliment him on his outfit.

I am in full agreement.

[KiltFitz]

It's an open forum Nathan. While I might be careful using words like 'tat' if I were sitting in someone's house, perusing their wedding photographs, the point of this post (I believe) was to get us talking about standards. I recognise the items that make up the outfit Richard posted. You can call it what you like but I think it looks mostly like the stuff I see in hire shops these days and sold retail as full "outfits".

I don't regard highlandwear as costume and in no other form of attire do I see grown men walk in to a shop and hand their discerning choice over the counter to the sales assistant. No-one seems to shop around either, largely because there is little choice on the high street.

I have no wish to offend anyone who recognises items from the outfit as their own but I would certainly steer anyone who asked my advice away from most of it. The fact that there are errors in the ensemble merely support the notion that there is little expertise to be had from the purveyor.

[Nathan]

...in no other form of attire do I see grown men walk in to a shop and hand their discerning choice over the counter to the sales assistant.

As a man who worked in men's wear through University, I can tell you that that's not the case. There are men who trust their own taste and men that hand it over to the people they deem more qualified (either their lass or the salesman).

I have no wish to offend anyone who recognises items from the outfit as their own but I would certainly steer anyone who asked my advice away from most of it. The fact that there are errors in the ensemble merely support the notion that there is little expertise to be had from the purveyor.

My point is simply that once something achieves a certain level of popularity, it definitionally stops being an "error" and becomes a trend.

Your taste and mine are similar at the end of the day but I simply think we have a skewed perspective in our little subculture about what can be considered "correct" in 2013.

As I said before, it all depends on who you're trying to impress. There are some groups I run with that would regard a full mask sporran as tasteless, savage, barbaric and cruel no matter how traditional it may be.

I'm just asking that we take a broader perspective and acknowledge what has happened in kilt fashion since around 1960.

[Panache]

I love that xmarks provides a view into the past and that OC Richard can post photos from the last two centuries to give us ideas on how to stand out in a crowd. I just think we should be careful when we malign the current fashion. A lot of men were married in that style and we shouldn't make them feel embarrased or ashamed of their wedding photos. They wore the kilt and did so according to contemporary standards and have every right to look at those photos with pride.

YES!

Well said.

ith:

Jamie

[Phil]

This May be a bit difficult for many here who have just arrived recently and who see the Prince Charlie as the dress of choice. If I was to go back 60 years or so, the expected dress would be a Montrose doublet with a jabot but on the intervening years the Prince Charlie arrived and was a more comfortable alternative (with the introduction of Central heating). Some tailors dis have their own alternatives but they were largely variations on the doublet (Kenmore, Sheriffmuir etc.). This Forum has encouraged many people to experiment with their own ideas regarding Highland dress and this is not a bad thing. But if anyone wants to follow true Highland dress conventions then the likes of our much loved Jock Scott has all the answers. I too have a history going back 3 generations so have a little knowledge to add so if it is important to preserve these traditions then - just ask.

[Laird_M]

I think part of the issue here is that we have some members who are extremely knowledgeable about the traditional social mores of Highland dress, we all have our own tastes and sense of style and we're all pretty passionate about our kilts, which for me makes this a great place.

Yes traditions change and are created everyday, as pointed out above. For example, when did it become tradition to send 'Happy Easter' cards? I'm only 45 and we never had then when I was a kid, but now every newsagent and cardshop sells them and its becoming traditional to send them. A tradition that is maybe 20? 25yrs old if that.

[KiltFitz]

Wow, I hadn't considered highlandwear to be a 'subculture' before. Makes me feel all subversive 'n' that.

I'm not in any way against development or progress, but I reserve the right to make an objective judgement as to whether a change in trend is an improvement or a 'symptom'. I own a version of most of the items pictured (save for the plaid and brooch) but I wouldn't put them all together like that and I daresay that the items I purchased (although they ostensibly appear the same to an untrained eye) are a bit better quality. For example, I basically traded my black PC and waistcoat for a wine coloured set because I was bored with looking exactly the same as every other guy at a formal do. I probably didn't even pay as much for mine as this retailer would charge but that's because I am aware of the choices available and in my own thrifty wee way, I like a bargain. Don't we all?

My issue throughout this thread is that quality is decreasing because particular retailers have the greater influence on people who really want expert advice but get influenced according to business margins and the demands of people who have little appreciation of highlandwear or tradition but want to satisfy aesthetics involved with flower arrangements and tablecloths. That's why the majority of new tartans I see in these shops are bland and 'samey'. Fifty shades of grey without the excitement of the book. None of the plethora of purpley blue tartans I have seen lately has ever evoked the mountains, heather or thistles (that said, Isle of Skye is pretty gorgeous) that they purport to.

Of course, things change and what the majority do, we will consider to be fashionable but if it is driven purely by a lack of interest, inadequate training and an insatiable desire to increase profits then that change is not necessarily either a random or organic process. In those terms, we might call the Gold Brothers, cheap and cheerful but not made to last, kind of stuff to be 'trendy' or even 'the fashion'. I will call it tat because that's what I think it is. And I believe the people that sell it know that's what it is too.

[Nathan]

I agree that there is a lot of inferior tartan souvenir quality stuff being sold, like this:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GUNN-TARTAN-K...item20cdcc6323

But I'm just arguing against the notion that a rouche tie, white hose or ghillie brogues automatically makes an outfit a low quality tasteless trinket. These as well as PCs and argyll's are available in a wide array of quality levels.

"Tat" is a cheap and tasteless item. I thnk that's different from a change in trend such as hose colour, tartan or neckwear choices.

The $40 one size fits all synthetic kilt from pakistan? Tat for sure. Still, though, even that has it's place as entry level attire.

I meant xmarksthescot is the subculture with a rigidly conservative view of traditional Highland fashion that is out of step with the mainstream. It is a sub-culture within kilt enthusiasts which really is a sub-culture among Scots at home and abroad.

[KiltFitz]

I agree that there is a lot of inferior tartan souvenir quality stuff being sold, like this:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GUNN-TARTAN-K...item20cdcc6323

But I'm just arguing against the notion that a rouche tie, white hose or ghillie brogues automatically makes an outfit a low quality tasteless trinket. These as well as PCs and argyll's are available in a wide array of quality levels.

"Tat" is a cheap and tasteless item. I thnk that's different from a change in trend such as hose colour, tartan or neckwear choices.

The $40 one size fits all synthetic kilt from pakistan? Tat for sure. Still, though, even that has it's place as entry level attire.

I meant xmarksthescot is the subculture with a rigidly conservative view of traditional Highland fashion that is out of step with the mainstream. It is a sub-culture within kilt enthusiasts which really is a sub-culture among Scots at home and abroad.

I agree with this. I am not singularly against kilt hire either. In many circumstances it is the only viable option. But I keep my eye on what the best places are and even if there might be a £20 difference, I normally point friends in the direction of a better shop with more choice and expertise.

I don't think anyone should have to conform too much to rules of hose colour or tie etc (although some choices do look a bit silly at times), but the current trend in fashion tartans for hire outlets I find to be boring. There are exceptions of course but most of them just bring out a yawn from me. Mothers-in-law seem to love them however.