What tartan is that

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 5th December 13, 05:20 PM

Ok, I figured out how to view the original image in a very high resolution (from flickr, right click on the image and select "original" size). That clarifies it. It is definitely NOT MacNab. However, not precisely the same tartan as the one worn in the photo Peter posted, either. In Peter's photo and in the image on the National Register site, the tartan is asymmetrical. However, in the original photograph (from Lochearnhead Highland Games, 2011, BTW), the same tartan is symmetric.

Maybe an earlier or a later run of cloth? One done in error?

But definitely the Lawers Estate tartan, however you slice it.

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 5th December 13, 05:30 PM

I fail to see what, if anything, has been disrespectful about this thread. Someone came here with a question - can you identify the tartan in this photo? We have one of the world's leading tartan experts participating in this forum. He does so of his own good will. No one is paying him to be Chief Tartan Researcher for X Marks the Scot. He doesn't have to answer at all. I think we should all be grateful that he, and other experts who freely contribute their knowledge on this forum, are so willing to do so.

I can't count the times that Peter, myself, Rocky, or others have answered a "what tartan is this?" question immediately.

But this time the tartan was a bit more obscure than most. And so rather than just put the answer out there plainly, Peter decided to tease a little bit - clearly not with any mean spirit or ill will, but rather to give the rest of us the fun in sleuthing it out. And we did just that, helped along by a few hints that Peter provided along the way.

It was fun, and we all have had a good conversation. And, I might add, the question was still answered in less than 24 hours.

I see no reason for all parties involved here to not have a smile on their face and be grateful for a little diversion and a good discussion. If the OP at any point had grown frustrated by the detective work playing out, he could have simply said so, or PM'ed Peter for the answer to the question. But he did not, and so I suspect he just may have enjoyed the discussion along with the rest of us.

Let us please not imagine some offense when none was intended, none received, and none perceived by any of the participants in this thread.

**Carlo** · 5th December 13, 05:39 PM

I'm still confused, how can it be a tartan that is registered as asymetrical when the actual tartan worn is symetrical.

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 5th December 13, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Carlo

I'm still confused, how can it be a tartan that is registered as asymetrical when the actual tartan worn is symetrical.

Apparently it has been woven both ways. In the photo from the first post in this thread, the tartan is symmetric. In the later photo that Peter posted, the tartan is asymmetric.

**figheadair** · 5th December 13, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome

FOUND IT!

And I did it the same way Peter, did, with a name search. Only I didn't search via any tartan database. Just old fashioned Google (or would that be new fashioned?).

It's the Lawers Estate tartan.
http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=2067

"From a kilt worn by Mr Gibbons, owner of Lawers Estate near Comrie. Mr Gibbons said that the tartan had been specially woven by the London Kiltmakers based on a historic pattern associated with the estate. Details are unconfirmed. The pattern is asymmetric and uses two thread black stripes to delineate the colours."

POSTSCRIPT: Although, looking again at that first photo, I'm still not entirely convinced that it is NOT MacNab. But it is admittedly hard to tell given the resolution of the photograph.

Well done Matt and thank you for your comments in #52 . Now to put this in context. The entry on the Tartan Register and the STA site is incorrect. I designed the tartan in c1985 for Bob (Robert) Gibbons who owns Lawers Estate. The historic pattern used as the basis was the old Estate Tweed and the sett was/should be symmetrical.

The cloth in the OP was woven by Dalgliesh but it looks as though Mr Gibbons, who worked in London, had the material re-woven by 'the London Kiltmakers' who I suspect was Scotch House and they apparently got it wrong and had an asymmetric bolt woven which was used for the boys' kilts in the second picture who, contrary to the caption, are not Ginger MacGregors but Mr Gibbons’ sons.

**Downunder Kilt** · 6th December 13, 02:37 AM

Many thanks for once again sharing your knowledge with us Peter. The back story is most interesing. Thanks again and cheers

**MacGumerait** · 6th December 13, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by David Thorpe

I was not, and if anything is disrespectful, it is toward the OP's simple question. I am rather surprised that you don't see that.

David , I hear you and agree . The OP simply asked for help to identify a tartan . He wasn't presenting a challenge to " guess " a tartan . The OP just didn't know the tartan ( neither did I ) and was asking the rabble to please identify it for him .

The OP's thread didn't say ... " guess this tartan " . I fully appreciate the learning experience of going thru the steps it took to eventually discern the tartan ( that is always valuable ) . However , I don't think the OP was asking for all of that .

No matter the intentions , sometimes less is more .

No offense to anyone and cheers to all .

Mike

Just food for thought for all of us .

**creagdhubh** · 6th December 13, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome

I fail to see what, if anything, has been disrespectful about this thread. Someone came here with a question - can you identify the tartan in this photo? We have one of the world's leading tartan experts participating in this forum. He does so of his own good will. No one is paying him to be Chief Tartan Researcher for X Marks the Scot. He doesn't have to answer at all. I think we should all be grateful that he, and other experts who freely contribute their knowledge on this forum, are so willing to do so.

I can't count the times that Peter, myself, Rocky, or others have answered a "what tartan is this?" question immediately.

But this time the tartan was a bit more obscure than most. And so rather than just put the answer out there plainly, Peter decided to tease a little bit - clearly not with any mean spirit or ill will, but rather to give the rest of us the fun in sleuthing it out. And we did just that, helped along by a few hints that Peter provided along the way.

It was fun, and we all have had a good conversation. And, I might add, the question was still answered in less than 24 hours.

I see no reason for all parties involved here to not have a smile on their face and be grateful for a little diversion and a good discussion. If the OP at any point had grown frustrated by the detective work playing out, he could have simply said so, or PM'ed Peter for the answer to the question. But he did not, and so I suspect he just may have enjoyed the discussion along with the rest of us.

Let us please not imagine some offense when none was intended, none received, and none perceived by any of the participants in this thread.

Well said, Matt. Well said indeed.

**creagdhubh** · 6th December 13, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by MacGumerait

David , I hear you and agree . The OP simply asked for help to identify a tartan . He wasn't presenting a challenge to " guess " a tartan . The OP just didn't know the tartan ( neither did I ) and was asking the rabble to please identify it for him .

The OP's thread didn't say ... " guess this tartan " . I fully appreciate the learning experience of going thru the steps it took to eventually discern the tartan ( that is always valuable ) . However , I don't think the OP was asking for all of that .

No matter the intentions , sometimes less is more .

No offense to anyone and cheers to all .

Mike

Just food for thought for all of us .

Really? Did you not read Matt's post? I think he sums everything up extremely well and makes some excellent points. And to be honest, I thought David was joking with his initial post, as I have met him several times in person and am aware of his sense of humour. Anyways, this thread was a great deal of fun. There was really no deviation from the topic at all and like Matt said, the OP's question was indeed answered and more! What else could you ask for?

**creagdhubh** · 6th December 13, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by figheadair

Well done Matt and thank you for your comments in #52 . Now to put this in context. The entry on the Tartan Register and the STA site is incorrect. I designed the tartan in c1985 for Bob (Robert) Gibbons who owns Lawers Estate. The historic pattern used as the basis was the old Estate Tweed and the sett was/should be symmetrical.

The cloth in the OP was woven by Dalgliesh but it looks as though Mr Gibbons, who worked in London, had the material re-woven by 'the London Kiltmakers' who I suspect was Scotch House and they apparently got it wrong and had an asymmetric bolt woven which was used for the boys' kilts in the second picture who, contrary to the caption, are not Ginger MacGregors but Mr Gibbons’ sons.

Very interesting information here, Peter. Thank you for sharing this. I must admit, this has been one of the most intriguing tartans I've ever encountered in regards to its provenance and history. And the fact that it's such a simple sett design, which ideally speaking should lend itself to being easily identifiable, was not for some - especially for yours truly!

Many thanks to Matt as well for sharing his bit of information in regards to the Lawers Estate tartan. I absolutely love the cross-exchange of information, historical attributes, interpretations, detailed descriptions, etc, in regards to the discussion of various tartans as represented so nicely in this thread. Things like this really make this forum a great place to be.

Cheers gents,