To plaid or not to plaid.....thats the question??

[Jock Scot]

I quite agree.
On the subject of plaids, could the two gents in this image be wearing the fore runner of the fly plaid? Or is it just called a sash at that length?
Attachment 16750

It looks rather reasonable to me. Made of a 10z wool, it would more evenly distribute the weight. It would also be useful for a gentlemen to offer to a lady in distress. Perhaps there is on in my future.

If I may, a word of warning about using these pictures as examples of what to wear with Highland attire. These wonderfully constructed pictures were arranged as eye candy during the height of the romantic and wealthy Victorian love affair with the Highlands of Scotland, by a skilled, but commercially minded artist. Please do not regard the subject matter in the pictures as any general guide to Highland attire for the masses.These subjects are at best, if you like, wearing Sunday best and are more likely to have been dressed from the local Laird's wardrobe.
Just saying.

[Nathan]

On the subject of plaids: They are over the top for most occasions nowadays. Even if the gents in the MacLeay portraits were wearing their own attire, it's been "a long time since them days". Times change. I like them for the groom of a wedding or a piper in full military regalia, but for most real life occasions, I think they are both impractical and overly ostentatious.

[Bob C]

I like my fly plaid. Haven't had an occasion to wear it lately, but I wish I did.

[orionpyoung]

These subjects are at best, if you like, wearing Sunday best and are more likely to have been dressed from the local Laird's wardrobe.
Just saying.

Certainly, anyone who has spent some time on this forum has heard (over and again) that the MacLeay paintings are not accurate daily wear, but considering the thread is a discussion of weaing the fly plaid, "Sunday best" seems appropriate.

Indeed Nathan times do change, but this does not happen on its own. If several folks make an alteration to the way they dress, slowly a new norm is created. While the mainsteram will allow fashion to stagnate on account of tradition, those who swim against the stream (Folks not in Scotland wearing kilts) create their own sense of style wich allows evolution to continue.

Sometimes I feel somewhat closterphobic in this forum. I find it ironic that on one hand folks regard the gentlemen in the MacLeay (and other) paintings to be well turned out and displaying a lack of uniformity that has become the standard of our day. People comment on the variety of jackets, waistcoats, belts, hose, shoes and sporrans. On the other hand they appear nervous to fit with the standards of our time, seeking acceptence and attempting to conform to the uniform of the day. Aside from those in Scotland, wearing the kilt within strict social rules for very specific events, we could certainly do no harm in being more open minded about our approach how we put together our kilted "kit". This could just be the ramblings of an odd duck, but then again aren't all of us (Once again besides the Scotland folk) odd ducks wearing kilts about amongst the sea of trousers?

[Nathan]

Certainly, anyone who has spent some time on this forum has heard (over and again) that the MacLeay paintings are not accurate daily wear, but considering the thread is a discussion of weaing the fly plaid, "Sunday best" seems appropriate.

Indeed Nathan times do change, but this does not happen on its own. If several folks make an alteration to the way they dress, slowly a new norm is created. While the mainsteram will allow fashion to stagnate on account of tradition, those who swim against the stream (Folks not in Scotland wearing kilts) create their own sense of style wich allows evolution to continue.

Sometimes I feel somewhat closterphobic in this forum. I find it ironic that on one hand folks regard the gentlemen in the MacLeay (and other) paintings to be well turned out and displaying a lack of uniformity that has become the standard of our day. People comment on the variety of jackets, waistcoats, belts, hose, shoes and sporrans. On the other hand they appear nervous to fit with the standards of our time, seeking acceptence and attempting to conform to the uniform of the day. Aside from those in Scotland, wearing the kilt within strict social rules for very specific events, we could certainly do no harm in being more open minded about our approach how we put together our kilted "kit". This could just be the ramblings of an odd duck, but then again aren't all of us (Once again besides the Scotland folk) odd ducks wearing kilts about amongst the sea of trousers?

I've seen a lot of back and forth about how representative the MacLeay portraits are of the actual Highland fashion of the period between OCRichard and Jock Scot. I wasn't there, but I think OCRichard has dug up enough archival photography from the period to demonstrate his side of the argument and, given the lack of evidence to the contrary, that's where I lean. My point is that we don't live then, we live now so it's a moot point. What do the tradition bearers of our day consider appropriate? While finding a 100+ year old example of one's attire choice shows a precedent, it doesn't demonstrate that it is traditional.

Regarding your point about being outside of Scotland so anything goes, I can't say I agree. I can't speak for my US friends but there has always been a tradition of kilt wearing in Canada. Kilt wearing is certainly not as widespread as it is in Scotland, but it is mostly carried out here by Canadians of Scottish ancestry or indeed by Scottish ex-pats and both of these groups feel a close connection to their Scottish roots. Canada's military has several kilted regiments. Moreover, we are a Commonwealth nation that shares a monarch with the United Kingdom and so our connections to British traditions are close and are easily demonstrated through our institutions. There are Highland Dance academies and pipe bands in most corners of the country and by and large, Canadian Scots view themselves as part of the broader Scottish landscape.

Since official and unofficial multiculturalism has become a fact of Canadian life, many Scottish-Canadians feel less self-conscious about asserting their culture openly through traditional garb. This is especially so at weddings and formal functions.

Many Scottish-Canadian celebrities have been photographed kilted including Mike Myers and Kiefer Sutherland.

With that in mind, most people here generally do their best to get it right out of respect for their culture. Like their Scottish cousins, they are influenced by the kilt hire industry.

Does that mean we all stick strictly to TCHD? Not really. For example, when Ashley MacIsaac blended his kilt fashion with the grunge look, this was done as a statement of his particular generation in the Celtic culture and not necessary of the fact that he was outside of Scotland. His music was blending traditional and modern elements and so he depicted this visually. This was an artistic statement similar to ones that have been made in Scotland by Runrig and others.

As I read it, your argument amounts to, "Why should we be concerned about the Scots when wearing Scottish national dress outside of Scotland?" To my Gaelic-Canadian sensibilities, this boggles the mind.

I'm wearing the kilt to demonstrate my Highland heritage to all and sundry so disregarding how it's viewed in the land of it's origin seems bizarre to me. I grew up in Cape Breton, a very Celtic part of New Scotland with a majority of people being descended from Highland Scots and where Scots Gaelic is still spoken daily in some corners. When kilted, I am an ambassador of this culture and so I feel a responsibility to accurately reflect that. But hey, maybe that's just me...

[orionpyoung]

Open minded Nathan, not an all out disregard for tradition and common sense.

[rondo]

Certainly, anyone who has spent some time on this forum has heard (over and again) that the MacLeay paintings are not accurate daily wear, but considering the thread is a discussion of weaing the fly plaid, "Sunday best" seems appropriate.

Indeed Nathan times do change, but this does not happen on its own. If several folks make an alteration to the way they dress, slowly a new norm is created. While the mainsteram will allow fashion to stagnate on account of tradition, those who swim against the stream (Folks not in Scotland wearing kilts) create their own sense of style wich allows evolution to continue.

Sometimes I feel somewhat closterphobic in this forum. I find it ironic that on one hand folks regard the gentlemen in the MacLeay (and other) paintings to be well turned out and displaying a lack of uniformity that has become the standard of our day. People comment on the variety of jackets, waistcoats, belts, hose, shoes and sporrans. On the other hand they appear nervous to fit with the standards of our time, seeking acceptence and attempting to conform to the uniform of the day. Aside from those in Scotland, wearing the kilt within strict social rules for very specific events, we could certainly do no harm in being more open minded about our approach how we put together our kilted "kit". This could just be the ramblings of an odd duck, but then again aren't all of us (Once again besides the Scotland folk) odd ducks wearing kilts about amongst the sea of trousers?

Perfectly stated, Sir!
Rondo

[AFS1970]

For my two kilts I only have a plaid for one of them. I rather like it, but don't feel the need to wear it all the time.

For me the influence was that when I was a teenager and my family joined the local St. Andrews society, most of the gentlemen who had been around a while and certainly all those who were officers of the society wore plaids at formal events. Thus the people that gave me my initial instruction on TCHD wore them, and I started to also.

When I ordered my second kilt, I intended it to be for purely informal events, although I did wear it once formally and it worked out well enough. That time, obviously, I did not wear a plaid, as I don't have one in that tartan.

I am thinking if I end up coming into the funds at some point of a third kilt (seems like such a small number to so many of you) and that one I will order a plaid with, but more so that I have the option to wear it with or without one.

As for formal wear changing, I hate that it has and despite my wife telling me I was born in the wrong century, I will fight kicking and screaming the demise of formal wear.

[creagdhubh]

I've seen a lot of back and forth about how representative the MacLeay portraits are of the actual Highland fashion of the period between OCRichard and Jock Scot. I wasn't there, but I think OCRichard has dug up enough archival photography from the period to demonstrate his side of the argument and, given the lack of evidence to the contrary, that's where I lean. My point is that we don't live then, we live now so it's a moot point. What do the tradition bearers of our day consider appropriate? While finding a 100+ year old example of one's attire choice shows a precedent, it doesn't demonstrate that it is traditional.

Regarding your point about being outside of Scotland so anything goes, I can't say I agree. I can't speak for my US friends but there has always been a tradition of kilt wearing in Canada. Kilt wearing is certainly not as widespread as it is in Scotland, but it is mostly carried out here by Canadians of Scottish ancestry or indeed by Scottish ex-pats and both of these groups feel a close connection to their Scottish roots. Canada's military has several kilted regiments. Moreover, we are a Commonwealth nation that shares a monarch with the United Kingdom and so our connections to British traditions are close and are easily demonstrated through our institutions. There are Highland Dance academies and pipe bands in most corners of the country and by and large, Canadian Scots view themselves as part of the broader Scottish landscape.

Since official and unofficial multiculturalism has become a fact of Canadian life, many Scottish-Canadians feel less self-conscious about asserting their culture openly through traditional garb. This is especially so at weddings and formal functions.

Many Scottish-Canadian celebrities have been photographed kilted including Mike Myers and Kiefer Sutherland.

With that in mind, most people here generally do their best to get it right out of respect for their culture. Like their Scottish cousins, they are influenced by the kilt hire industry.

Does that mean we all stick strictly to TCHD? Not really. For example, when Ashley MacIsaac blended his kilt fashion with the grunge look, this was done as a statement of his particular generation in the Celtic culture and not necessary of the fact that he was outside of Scotland. His music was blending traditional and modern elements and so he depicted this visually. This was an artistic statement similar to ones that have been made in Scotland by Runrig and others.

As I read it, your argument amounts to, "Why should we be concerned about the Scots when wearing Scottish national dress outside of Scotland?" To my Gaelic-Canadian sensibilities, this boggles the mind.

I'm wearing the kilt to demonstrate my Highland heritage to all and sundry so disregarding how it's viewed in the land of it's origin seems bizarre to me. I grew up in Cape Breton, a very Celtic part of New Scotland with a majority of people being descended from Highland Scots and where Scots Gaelic is still spoken daily in some corners. When kilted, I am an ambassador of this culture and so I feel a responsibility to accurately reflect that. But hey, maybe that's just me...

Well said, Nathan! I especially like your concluding sentence!

[Tobus]

Sometimes I feel somewhat closterphobic in this forum. I find it ironic that on one hand folks regard the gentlemen in the MacLeay (and other) paintings to be well turned out and displaying a lack of uniformity that has become the standard of our day. People comment on the variety of jackets, waistcoats, belts, hose, shoes and sporrans. On the other hand they appear nervous to fit with the standards of our time, seeking acceptence and attempting to conform to the uniform of the day. Aside from those in Scotland, wearing the kilt within strict social rules for very specific events, we could certainly do no harm in being more open minded about our approach how we put together our kilted "kit". This could just be the ramblings of an odd duck, but then again aren't all of us (Once again besides the Scotland folk) odd ducks wearing kilts about amongst the sea of trousers?

I understand what you're saying, and I agree in part. Modern kilt tradition has, sadly, been co-opted by the hire industry. This leads to boring, generic choices. There is a rich history of Highland clothing that many of us here appreciate, and we would like to see it make a comeback. However, there are limits on what constitutes good taste. Some items, while having a solid historical provenance, can easily go into "costume" territory. For me personally, I think it's best to stay within the traditional (even the older traditional that has faded from modern usage), but stopping well short of "costume".

The fly plaid was never a part of daily functional clothing for the Scots. By the time it appeared (mid 19th century is the earliest reference I've seen to it), it was merely a decorative piece, as an artificial bit of fluff intended to be a pseudo-vestigial remnant of the original full plaid. I would even go so far as to say it was "costume" from the get-go.

At any rate, it does have at least a century and a half of history. And it is common enough in formal wear that it doesn't cross as far over into "costume" territory as, say, a great kilt. But it's kind of at that dividing line. Some folks think it looks nice and traditional, others think it's over the line into costume. I tend to fall in the latter camp. And even though I'm a big proponent of reviving older styles (to avoid wearing a "modern uniform" as you mentioned), I'd rather see it done with the basic 'core' of the outfit. Like sporrans and jacket cuts and waistcoat styles and hose. But that's just me.