Post deleted. War time Atrocities!

[Grizzly]

Exactly Jock, and whilst I may look at this from a different angle, insofar that I agree that the world should know and learn from these past atrocities, i don't agree that this forum is the place to discuss this. I have deliberately not requested that this thread be closed, as the OP that is my right, because it has provoked an interesting discussion on what is and isn't an acceptable topic on a kilt forum.

I believe in free speech but I also believe in rules, without rules there is chaos and much rancour, the Mods have a hard enough job as it is. This would be a dull place indeed if we agreed on everything!

[CDNSushi]

Jock, your comments are certainly well-considered and valid, so I'm willing to have a "what-if" session. This should not construe a change in policy or even that there may be one. It's a thought exercise.

You've been here long enough to know and realize, (but many who are reading this have not), that all the rules we have currently have been seriously considered, thought out, and even occasionally revised and updated. There is a long history to the existing set of rules, and many have a very specific reason for existing in the form that they do. Steve is the best resource on this because he can give a blow-by-blow account of how and why each rule came to being... (I wouldn't recommend asking, because we'd be here a LONG time). But they are all there because they serve specific, important purposes.

If and when rule updates are ever considered by the mod team, it's usually a very long, painstaking process as we consider the wording and language, meanings, interpretations, and outcomes. The moderators often debate back and forth quite a bit before consensus is reached, and I could point out numerous threads in the moderators' forum where proposed rule changes or additions have not made it past the first round of considerations. But in a nutshell, it takes a lot of time and energy to conceive and write out a good rule, and even more time and energy to discuss, test, agree on, and implement it. So even a good question to ask before anything else, is -- is it worth it? While in this case, my inclination is NO, (because I think that what we CAN discuss on XMarks far, far outweights that which we CANNOT by a large margin), again, I am willing to look at it thusly...

What would you propose that a change like the one you bring up in your last post, look like? Can you suggest the structure and wording for a rule that would give you what you're looking for in terms of permissiveness to discuss this kinds of topics?

One guideline to rule-writing: sentences should be relatively short and concise. If it cannot be explained in a couple of sentences, it's probably too complicated. (Most of our existing rules are worded that way, whenever possible). Notice, that there are almost no parenthetical explanations, for instance.

The reason for my question is NOT to say, "Well, if you think you can do better.... Be my guest." Not at all. It's more that I have an incredibly busy day and week, and simply cannot afford to dedicate this level of consideration to something that I don't believe is necessary, as we've existed quite well for 10 years now without having to resort to allowing these lines of discussion. As it is, the time each of the moderators spend on a daily basis tending to site matters is relatively high... But that said, if you wish to propose your ideas for the wording of a rule amendment, I am willing to engage in a reasonable dialogue about it for the sake of discussion. But again, I cannot say that this is a direction that Steve, as the owner, or the other moderators on the team are willing to go. Here, I am speaking on behalf of myself as an individual member -- not the moderators as a collective.

[English Bloke]

Post removed by English Bloke.

[Jock Scot]

Fair enough. Actually I have thought about it, for the Misc. section.

I propose something along the lines of this:-

"Just very occasionaly a topic may arise that is way beyond the norm of this website. If such a topic(such as war crimes) is being considered by a member, then a proposal should be made to the moderators for them to consider and decide upon, BEFORE the member may proceed."

OK I can see it does mean more work for the mods and I am not sure how much, but it does take away a surprise thread "bombshell".

[Alan H]

First of all, I very much respect and appreciate the works that the mods put in to keep XMtS running as well as it does. I also know that were I asked to be one....which I doubt that I ever will!.... I would decline because honestly, I don't have that much time! Yeah, I "get" that, and I'm in no way interested in opening a massive can of worms for the moderators.

So, there's that.

This morning on the way in to work I was thinking about this whole thing, and something occurred to me. Is XMarks the Scot a "community", or is it a "forum where people write about kilts"? I think that there's a significant diffrerence between those things. If X Marks is only a forum where people write about kilts and immediately related topics, then honestly, I think we can just dump the miscellaneous forum altogether and just write about kilts...modern kilts, traditional kilts, kiltmaking, sporrans, the Gaelic language, Scotland, Highland Games, boots and socks and so on. If we write about KILTS here, then why do we need a forum where we write about anything else?

However, if the idea is to build a community of people who happen to share one particular interest (stuff about kilts), then that very much changes the dynamic. For example, in a community, if my sister-in-law happens to die soon of angiosarcoma (she is very sick) I might choose to share my pain, and ask for prayers and good thoughts for her family. However, if XMarks the Scot is "only" a forum where we talk about kilts, I wouldn't bother to mention what happened at all.

I tend to think that XMarks the Scot is a Community. After all, the Nor Cal Rabble developed from X Marks and the Rabble is definitely a community. I very much look forward to meeting both Jock Scot and Creagdubh at the Inverness Highland Games next year, as well as seeing Cessna152towser in Hawick when Joan and I spend a few days in the Borders. I hope to tour the Kilmartin Valley with Redshank, as well. I was pleased and excited to meet Matt Newesome at the Greenville Games in North Carolina in 2012. Not only that, but just how many photo threads do we have that show real, live X Marks members, in their real, live skin, meeting up with other X Marks members and events around the country? That sounds like "community" to me.

But that's just me, eh? ...One guys view of things.

So, what is X Marks the Scot? Is it a "community of people", or a place to write about kilts and assorting kilt-related "stuff"? Or is it even worth considering the whole issue at all? ... as in, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"..

[Kalok Sundancer]

Another thought would be to create a section of the forum specifically for these sorts of things with a notice that CLEARLY states to "enter at your own risk". Many item themed forums have such a section.

[CDNSushi]

Another thought would be to create a section of the forum specifically for these sorts of things with a notice that CLEARLY states to "enter at your own risk". Many item themed forums have such a section.

As I've expressed in my earlier post though, I've been a moderator on such a site, and it was ugly to the point of the site owner having to step in. This may sound strong, but the day such a section gets instituted on XMarks is the day I resign my moderator post and turn in my membership. We've built this community over the past decade and have become internationally respected as a voice for kilt-wearers. Consider this: at ANY given time... That is to say, every SECOND of every minute of every day, there are at least a dozen search spiders from Google, Baidu, Bing, and others, reading, indexing, and cataloging everything that gets said and done here. I guarantee that if you Google search something that was posted here 5 minutes ago, you WILL find it! I would absolutely be vehemently opposed to allowing flame-wars, disputes, nasty arguments, and just negative threads in general to sully the respectable name that we have become. I just like this place too much to let it descend to that level.

[CDNSushi]

Fair enough. Actually I have thought about it, for the Misc. section.

I propose something along the lines of this:-

"Just very occasionaly a topic may arise that is way beyond the norm of this website. If such a topic(such as war crimes) is being considered by a member, then a proposal should be made to the moderators for them to consider and decide upon, BEFORE the member may proceed."

OK I can see it does mean more work for the mods and I am not sure how much, but it does take away a surprise thread "bombshell".

Jock, while we could put something like that in somewhere, let me just make the comment that the moderators do, from time to time receive specific requests from members of such a nature. As it stands now, if there is ever a question or doubt regarding the future or possible acceptability of a thread or post, the moderators are happy to help and provide insight on how it would/will be viewed by the staff.

That said, remember that this does not prevent anyone from flagging something... The mods may well say, "Sure, go ahead - post it." And someone else may find offense with it. At that point we are compelled to deal with it anyway, even though we may have given our best guess that it ought to be fine.

Those are good sentences you've drafted there. My question would be, how do you get people to follow such an instruction? (People are notoriously bad at reading and following instructions)...

[English Bloke]

This isn't a community. I've seen the "get back on topic" posts here added to threads put up when members have shared painful moments and I can tell you I didn't like it. So when my Sister died last May and my Brother in law followed her in December, I didn't feel it appropriate to mention it here. Why? Because it isn't a community, it's a kilt forum. At one time I felt it WAS a community... I don't now.

[Father Bill]

I've been sitting on this one for quite a while and just reading and watching.

Alan, with respect to your well-considered re-thinking process, I hope that X-Marks would have many of the characteristics of a community. In some ways it is just that. In some ways however, it isn't.

Even if it were totally a community of only very good friends who never ever disagreed with one another, there are still differences from one community to another. At a very childish level, each class in my school was nurtured to develop into a community of learners. Nonetheless, there are some things that were excellent discussion in a sex-ed class for 14 year olds that I would never introduce into my junior kindergarten... or... even into the general 14 year old class discussions because things could get um, ... messy.

I do not intend to compare anyone here to children (although there are a few moments when that has crossed my mind ) but only to give an extreme example from my own life experience. Not all communities are totally open to all discussions. My church is a very close-knit community. There are things that I share with family and friends that I wouldn't take with me to the pulpit. Perhaps that's a better example.

The Internet is a fabulous forum. X-Marks is one subset of that - closer in friendships than most from my experience. You, like all members, maybe even a wee bit more than some, are a highly respected and extremely valuable member of this particular forum. Your concerns and feelings are respected and there is a great deal of empathy here. That means that we are always glad when you post something.

Sometimes, things get a wee bit "edgy." Part of what keeps this particular forum closer to the community atmosphere is that we are cautious about what we post, with only a very few concise rules to guide our discussions. Thankfully, they are indeed few and concise. I cannot speak for the forum moderators as a group, I'm just one person: moderator and member, but I value the forum for its unusual closeness, and the rules are all there to promulgate and nurture that closeness, which means that while most discussions are as welcome as the flowers in spring, every once in a while something comes up that might be less than conducive to the harmony of the group. In such cases, a member may flag the posting and the moderators may invite an individual to withdraw to a private discussion on the matter such that any potential differences and hurt may be smoothed for the good of the forum in general.

I've been watching this particular thread thoughtfully, and there is good reason and opportunity to learn from it. It's very instructive to me both as an individual member and moderator. I'm not even entirely sure what I think of the situation, so please, nobody should assume that I have a set position on it. I don't.

I'm not even sure what point I want to make in this posting, except to let you and others know that there are always many many situations that are not well covered by even the best crafted set of rules or regulations. I think this may be partly in that category.

Why do I come here to X-Marks? Well, I recently came to the realization that it's only partly because of my kilt and Scottish interests. Probably even more than those, I come here because I like the things people here talk about, and particularly the way they do so, and it bothers me when there is discord. I try as a moderator, as I did as an individual member before that, to encourage kindness, civility, gentility, and caring. Heck, it's what I do for a living, both now as a priest, and before as a school principal. It doesn't always work, but we try.

For that reason, I deeply appreciate the thoughtful consideration that is being expressed by many of our members in this thread for the nature of our forum, the task that the forum moderators try to do as volunteers, and for the need to be thoughtful of, and caring for, one-another. I was hurt by the use of the word censorship, no matter how lightly it was applied. Without going into detail, the actions taken were consistent with the rules to which we as moderators try hard to adhere at all times. Censorship is not one of those.

Alan, thank you for raising this particular point, and to all, believe me, there has been no attempt to control anyone, only to nurture and protect that characteristic of our forum which we all most appreciate, and which I frequently see praised here - exactly that sense of community which you identify. In any family or association, there will be processes and procedures. Maybe what we have in that regard isn't the best we could have, but until then, we have to live with it, and I hope that you believe me when I tell you that for good or ill, that is what happened here.

Peace and deep respect to all!

Bill+

Oh crap; I wrote a lot more than I meant to.