Adam Ardrey - Finding Merlin and Finding Arthur

[David Thorpe]

That would not have been the matter in dispute David. It took many centuries, however, before the Papacy became established in the way we know it now and this was long after the era in which Arthur is set.

The point is that militant catholic Christianity was a feature of Arthur's and Merlin's world. Mungo was a zealot in the struggle to establish a single doctrine with zero tolerance for any other. Ardrey covers the subject, including a thorough examination of the bias in Jocelyn's public relations work.

I am not a historian, and am not comfortable defending Ardrey to those who are not familiar with the work. We are also headed toward a forum rules minefield. Ardrey has an interactive website which I suggest is a far more appropriate venue for discussing his books - after one has read them, of course.

[tundramanq]

I think David and I are the only ones who had read "Finding Merlin" and David's post is right on the marks. This isn't an adventure story, it is closer to a detailed research paper. Ardrey spent over a decade going to sites in his spare time, hunting down hard evidence to prove or disprove the details of this history.

I will start reading "Finding Arthur" soon. It takes some time and concentration ( and a map at times ) to keep it all sorted out.

[tripleblessed]

That depends on how far back one goes to assign a meaning to "Scottish". The word comes from the Roman "Scoti" which was their name for the people of Dalriada.

Arrival where? More likely in the south under Roman continental influence than in the untamed, pagan north where the battle between Christian factions and the "Old Way" extended at least well into the 6th century.

As communication requires agreement on the meaning of words, I'll make an informed guess that "Scottish" has to do with Scotland. The country. That did not arrive until later. Agreed on the source, but I've never seen it used in reference to the tribe separate from or preceding the existence of the country. Doesn't mean it never happened; I'd appreciate the opportunity for learning if you could point me to a credible reference. Always eager to learn.

Arrival where? I believe you'll find in my post reference to Glastonbury Cathedral. Every time I've been there, it has indeed been in the southwest of England. While I have not yet a copy of Ardrey's book, I at least offer the courtesy
of reading posts before making comment, disparaging or not. And while the "battle" between the Church and the Old
Way may have long burned to embers and died out, I can assure you that a good eye and wider experience will reveal
an active presence of that path across a wider arc of the Isles than many would expect. Not my particular path, but I
respect all paths and do my best to be observant.

Please remember I have not dismissed your position out of hand, I have said I'll need to see good proof. You yourself
said what he posits doesn't rise to the level of proof, so I'll keep an open mind.

[JonathanB]

Just as a tangent, what is this cathedral in Glastonbury? It was an abbey. I've googled "Glastonbury Cathedral" and can only find references to the abbey. (There is a body called the British Orthodox Church, in communion with the Coptic church of Egypt whose leader has the title "Metropolitan Seraphim of Glastonbury"http://britishorthodox.org/aboutus/clergy but that is recent.)

[David Thorpe]

...Agreed on the source, but I've never seen it used in reference to the tribe separate from or preceding the existence of the country. Doesn't mean it never happened; I'd appreciate the opportunity for learning if you could point me to a credible reference. Always eager to learn.

Here's the wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti
I will let you pour through the references listed at the bottom yourself. I have seen several sources equating the Scoti to the Dalriadans, distinct from the Picts, Britons, Norse and other early post-Roman groups in geographical origin, language and culture.

[tripleblessed]

Just as a tangent, what is this cathedral in Glastonbury? It was an abbey. I've googled "Glastonbury Cathedral" and can only find references to the abbey. (There is a body called the British Orthodox Church, in communion with the Coptic church of Egypt whose leader has the title "Metropolitan Seraphim of Glastonbury"http://britishorthodox.org/aboutus/clergy but that is recent.)

As before, you are correct. It was an abbey. And a very wealthy one. The sanctuary for worship was quite large, but no longer stands. It may be only this which has led many to refer to it as a cathedral. Not having grown up in a church known for building cathedrals, I defer to those who have. My first visit to the abbey was in 1996 as part of a group from a healing conference. Those who were local, and a couple of the docents referred to it as such, and so that's how I think of it. Perhaps I need to reframe. Kind of like performing certain songs, I hear Hank Williams in my head as I did on the radio in 1950 or 52, and they come out with many of his inflections. Henry VIII had the walls pulled down to demonstrate his power as the new head of the Church in England. It is possible, however, to gain much appreciation for what it might have been like while whole, and the site still reverberates with power if you know how to listen. In the Mary Chapel there is a tomb said by many to be the resting place of Arthur and Guinevere. I wouldn't say I accept that theory, but I can suggest that whoever was interred there was a person or persons of great strength and power, and should one have some ability to listen or feel the echoes of our heritage, one will find the trip well worth the effort.

[tundramanq]

Ardrey, early in his book states that he will use Scotland and Scottish to mean the land and distinct people who will become part of modern day Scotland in order to save him from having to write it all out every time. This should, hopefully, help with some of the confusion here.

[JonathanB]

trippleblessed -

Just to spread useful information -

A cathedral is not necessarily a big church. It contains the seat (in Greek "cathedra") of a bishop. Oban has two very modestly sized cathedrals for the Roman Catholic and Episcopalian (ie Anglican) bishops of Argyll and the Isles.

The worship area would normally be called the church.

The Mary chapel is usually called the Lady Chapel.

Gerald of Wales writing in the 1190s describes the discovery of Arthur's grave near the Lady Chapel a few years earlier. There is the theory that this was a ploy by the abbey to gain status. I'm not sure that Glastonbury was associated with Arthur prior to that. Geoffrey of Monmouth writing earlier in the century does not make the connection.

[tripleblessed]

Jonathan, agreed on all points. And while I am the one prating on about common usage of words a few posts above,
there are legitimate reasons for my choice of wording. The history as it happened and the way it's commonly related
have some differences far into the rules on politics and religion; beside which I am not eager ever to step into everyone's
cherished articles of faith. Willing, yes, but not eager. That conversation is perhaps not for this open forum. When I
manage to get back to England, if you're interested, a meal and a face to face discussion might be enjoyed. At least
I would enjoy it, always do with folk both reasonable and well informed. I might learn something useful.

[Father Bill]

What a fabulous discussion, wandering so very carefully close to and around the minefield without setting off any explosions either!

Okay, as an former English teacher and lover of Arthurania... which of the two books should I read first? I'm hooked!