Help redsigning a tartan

[Benning Boy]

Wow! Thanks guys. I've been playing around with the Scotweb designer, but have come up with nothing near as nice as what y'all have.

OCRiichard, your design really captures the colors of the dress uniform. It's a little more the officer uniform than the enlisted uniform, but it works nicely. I like the idea of being able to incorporate an Infantry blue stripe between two of the gold lines in you second effort. The pattern would allow one of any branch to have a custom weave with the specific branch color between the stripes. Notice the officer in the first picture has the maroon stripe of the Medical Service Corp within the gold stripes on his coat sleeves and the trouser legs -- also the cap. I wore the same with Infantry blue where the maroon is. We could all be happy with variations on that tartan -- except maybe the armor branch, the cavalry guys, but they don't count.

Guniness>water, your New US Army tartan is a real improvement on the original versions. I could wear that.

Artificer, you nailed the olive color the original pattern is missing. Olive drab will long be associated with the Army, although I suppose the younger generation will soon come to think of ACU green as their color, it's more like German feldgrau, maybe sand. At a minimum there should be a shade of green honoring The Big Green Weenie.

The original US Army tartan is supposed to have black from the beret. The Army uniform has included a lot of black, ever since the green gas station attendant uniform was adopted decades ago -- black shoes, black belt, black necktie; black in things like Ranger tabs etc. There's still a lot of black in the current uniform. I don't have a big problem with black in an Army tartan.

Several shades have been called Khaki over the years. It has historical significance. No problem with that either.

The original tartan called US Army is sort of OK, I just have a problem with the cavalry gold. I want Infantry blue. I suppose others might prefer their branch colors. But as far as I'm concerned the entire Army exists just to get infantrymen on the objective, without the Infantry every other branch has no purpose. I'd be happy with an Army tartan where Infantry blue dominates.

[Carlo]

...as far as I'm concerned the entire Army exists just to get infantrymen on the objective...

And I always thought the Army exists to protect the people

[OC Richard]

But as far as I'm concerned the entire Army exists just to get infantrymen on the objective

Yes indeed there never was, and probably never will be, any substitute for 'boots on the ground'.

The Infantry has been called The Queen Of Battle (perhaps thinking of chess, where the Queen is the most powerful and flexible piece).

Taking the long view of things, the Army Dress Blues isn't merely the modern uniform, it's clearly based on the traditional uniform going back to the Civil War. The Army has worn dark blue jackets since the 18th century, and they've been paired with light blue trousers since the mid-19th century.

Like this



Olive Drab didn't come in until the early 20th century, the forest green Class A's not until the mid 20th century. It is for these reasons that if I were to design a US Army tartan I wouldn't include green. The addition of large quantities of black is even more recent (unless you're talking the leather of shoes and belts).

[Benning Boy]

I think you're right, a US Army tartan doesn't really need green. Blue has been around since the Revolution, and has always been a part of the full dress uniform, despite changes in color of the everyday uniform. And up until nineteen aught something it was a part of the everyday uniform. The green AG 344 (Army Green shade 344) uniform came out of nowhere, a color that had no tradition behind it whatsoever. The previous Army dress uniform looked a lot like the Marines khaki dress uniform, I don't know what they call it, and somebody decided the Army shouldn't be mistaken for Marines and should have it's own color. The choice sucked. When I joined the Army in 1967, the old timers hated the green uniform, these were guys who had served through WWII, Korea and Viet Nam, but they loved their dress blue uniforms. I could never put on an AG 344 uniform without thinking how much it offended men of long service. I've downed the Infantry kool aid (chugged a whole barrel of it) and would really like a tartan with an Infantry blue stripe, which is a somewhat different shade than the light blue trousers of the Civil War re-enacters seen above. However, as the symbol of an entire service, the ideal tartan should probably not include branch colors. I've displayed the US Army tartan in my avatar because it's the best I could do. (060414 changed my avatar to the Mk2 tartan below) I have a kilt in the tartan, too. However, it just misses the mark on so many counts, like it was thrown together in a hurry. I think I'll play around with the shades of blue and gold for a bit and see what I can come up with. Maybe OCRichard's submissions are right on.

ETA: An afterthought. I doubt there would ever be a whole lot of demand for a new Army tartan, but could one be registered, and perhaps copyrighted, and royalties charged for it's use, with the money going to Army Emergency Relief, or something like that?

[Benning Boy]

Thinking about this again this morning. I'm emailing the Army Institute of Heraldry to ask if they can give me a definition of the correct shades of Army blue and gold using the RGB color scheme so I can create them exactly on a computer screen. Failing that, I could go to Marlow White, the uniform maker over in Leavenworth, and get samples of the cloth used in making uniforms that strictly meet standards. Is there a simple way to scan such samples into a computer and get the RGB numbers as a result? It's been a very long time since I've done any web design, or done any print design using a color wheel. I've forgotten more than I ever knew. I could use some help getting the correct colors to display in a proposed Army tartan like OCRichard posted above. Thanks, Rabble.

[Guinness>water]

What about this one. I added the white, Infantry blue and changed the proportions of the blue/black. like you recommended.....
http://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartandesign/details/64384

[The Wizard of BC]

I had the same thought about the Leatherneck Tartan that you have about the Army Tartan.

I took a simple approach by using the USMC Dress Blue Uniform and using the exact same colors in the same ratios as the Uniform.



And created the USMC Dress Blue Tartan.





For your problem I tried the same idea. I started with the US Army Enlisted Dress Blue Uniform.



Starting with a base of the two colors of Blue from the blouse and trousers, in the same ratio I added the white, Gold and Black.

Then within the dark Blue I added the colors from the distinctive branch color between Gold. Here with the light Blue of Infantry.



With a simple change of only one stripe of one color you get the Artillery version.



I also looked at this problem with the eyes of a kiltmaker. The Sett size would be 7.25" when woven in 16oz wool which would give you a good pleat depth and also allow you to box pleats this Tartan if desired. The Pattern is simple and easy to pleat to the Sett or to either the branch distinctive stripe or the gold within the lighter blue like the trousers.

[OC Richard]

What about this one. I added the white, Infantry blue and changed the proportions of the blue/black. like you recommended.....
http://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartandesign/details/64384

Here it is so we can all see it, I hope you don't mind. I really like your design! Though to me the blue area seems a bit compressed or choked... perhaps if it were given a bit more room to breathe?



Wizard, I myself would alter the proportions slightly of both your tartans
1) in the Marine tartan the dark blue area is being overpowered a bit by the white/gold area; I would increase the width of the dark blue area slightly, and try to create more balance (a quite subtle shift is all that's required)
2) in the Army tartan the background colours are approaching 50/50 which can make a tartan look blocky and static; as you can see the base of your Marine tartan (closer to The Golden Ratio as it is) is stronger. I also would have changed that white line to gold, as per the jacket's cuff.

Time for me to put up or shut up! So here goes, a new attempt, for what it's worth. I added black mainly because it needed 'something' in that dark blue.

Here's Infantry, with the gold border



Artillery... no matter what red I tried, and I tried five or six of them, it either looked to pinkish or too orange, so apologies in advance to you Artillerymen out there



Military Police... there's your green! Branches with two colors work great, the other color can take the place of the gold border



and Medical Corps

[Steve Ashton]

Your comments are interesting and appreciated Richard although the USMC Dress Blue Tartan cannot be changed at this date. It is already registered, fabric woven, and kilts made from this design.

The reason behind these two designs is based not only on how these look as a square on the screen but how they look when made into kilts with various pleating choices.

The USMC, when pleated to the Red stripe is very reminiscent of the full uniform. The lighter blue really looks like the trousers.
And the white accent look like the waistbelt and cover.



Some people do not like blocks of color like my designs but others, myself included. do. I sized the elements in the same ratio as that found in the uniform itself so it sort of had to have the two blues in that ratio.
I of course look at Tartan as a Kiltmaker would. I imagine it laid out on a table, as I try to figure out how to pleat it. I look at Sett size and the width of the individual elements. In general fewer, larger, simplier elements pleat up much better than a lot of small elements.
As I tend to pleat military inspired Tartans to the Stripe I would usually pleat this Army Tartan to the Gold stripe within the lighter blue.

This would mean that the white and branch distinctive parts would be seen in the front apron and far less in the back of the kilt.

I ran some numbers and if I were commissioned to have this woven I would request five different runs.
The first four would have the branch colors of the four largest branches.
Infantry Blue for Infantry
Yellow for Armor and Cav
Scarlet for Artillery and ADA
And Ultamarine Blue for Aviation.

I would then have the fifth run of 4 times more yardage done with a fifth, more neutral branch stripe such as MSC.
When someone were to order fabric for a kilt they would get 3 yards d/w for the pleats and 1yard d/w for the aprons in their choice of branch.

This would actually be a very cost effective way to have this Tartan woven.

Four runs of 14yards and one of 64 yards. Very easily done.

My submission is quite different from some of the others submitted so far. I am using the current ASU Army uniform and not the Dress Blue or Green Class A used during my time. So I do not have any green in my designs.
the two colors used in the current ASU uniform are actually quite close to each other. Army shade 450 for the blouse and Army shade 452 for the trousers. I included the gold stripe within the lighter blue to represent the gold stripe of the NCO and Officer trousers.
The White in my design is for the shirt. To my eye this design was quite dark and needed an accent stripe to catch the eye.
In my design there actually are black guards to the branch stripe and between the White and Lighter Blue.

So yes, my submissions are quite different from some of the others. I think that was the goal of the OP. to see if something different could be done that would represent what he sees and thinks of when he sees US Army attached to a design.

So I offer these only as submissions. The decision will be in the eye of the OP. If he likes mine he is welcome to them free of charge. If not he is free to choose any other design he prefers better.

[Benning Boy]

Man, you guys are really cranking out some great ideas. I probably should stop messing around and follow your leads.

Guiness, I love your design. I see you chose privet as the olive shade. I'd been playing with that one too. You're choice for khaki is excellent. That Infantry blue sure tickles my fancy.


I'm really liking the various proposed tartans based on the dress uniform, too. Could there be an Army Modern Dress tartan that's predominately blue, and an Army hunting tartan based on the olive? Hunting really isn't an official Army mission, but patrolling is. Maybe we could have an Army Dress and an Army Patrolling tartan. How about that that?

Steve's designs are fantastic. Very dressy. I really appreciate knowing how the tartan would pleat. As I've toyed with designs I've wondered how they might pleat. A kilt making master should know far better than I. I like the way branch colors can be worked in. The Scotweb tartan designer tells me thread count, but I have no idea how that converts to inches and pleatability.


OCRichard, your designs are impressive. I do like the touch of black running through the dark blue. I have no idea how much of a new Army tartan would ever sell, but I think giving the buyer an option of having branch colors woven in is a big plus. You displayed the option very well.

Having just read Steve's last post, I understand his designs even better. I'm not sure I understand the idea behind the amounts that might be ordered, conceivably, I'm going to have to reread that and try to imagine how a kilt is made. I appreciate you making you designs freely available, Steve.

I'm getting the itch. The tartan designs keep saying to me buy, buy, buy! However, a new kilt is going to have to wait. I want to lose a few more inches before committing to anything of higher quality and cost. However, that wouldn't necessarily stop me from buying fabric in anticipation of reaching a goal that should be arrived at by late summer, at the present rate.

This thread has had a lot of viewers. Won't some of you comment? I'm excited by this effort, but would appreciate even more commentary.