The end of traditional tartan - a personal view

[TheOfficialBren]

I find it sad and would prefer to buy artisan crafted goods exclusively but they are simply out of reach most of the time.

Most mills seem to just be trying to keep their heads above water.

I will liken this to music.

When I was in the music industry do you have any clue how often I was expected to JUST GIVE AWAY my hard work and then be grateful that someone would take it FOR FREE?! Do you have any idea what goes on behind the scenes in that arena?

Elvis never, ever gave anything away. Ever. He purchased his own mother's concert tickets for her rather than comp them to her. He understood the business of the arts (though he never published [made available for sale, the definition of music publishing, according to Bobby Borg, an expert on the subject with several books published] a self-composed song during his entire career).

How pertaineth this to kilts?

Simple. Weaving is an art. The economy is in the stinker by design and shall remain so for a while. People are now pre-programmed to buy big box twaddle and only see value at the end of a decimal rather than quality in manufacture and materials.

Weavers (like musicians) must adapt or die. Tough love but it's the truth. I would LOVEto buy Peter's or whomever's custom woven herringbone selvedge tartan in special colours dyed by the weaver and crafted with passion and love of the craft but these weavers' prices are simply unattainable.

Maybe 1/1,000 kilties MIGHT go the custom weave route.
Rather, accept that profit margins are smaller right now and get on with your day. Be glad that someone wants your wares. Don't give it away but adjust your prices to reflect the changes in the economic climate. You can always change your prices again later.

I did my debut album for just under $13,000. Can you produce 100 yards (typical custom weave minimum from many mills) of custom tartan for that price?

Kyle's single Chattan kilt would have cost over $1,000. One song on my debut record cost about $1,000 to produce from start to finish (and I was extremelyconservative with my production budget).

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Why make it more difficult for people to give you money in exchange for your products and/or services?

Sorry for the rant but this issue is a muddy one which I can appreciate from both the mill and consumer perspectives.
I understand that whenever we discuss economic matters on here they may veer into troublesome waters but that is the very nature of economics. Someone will always be offended, hurt, or left out. That's just the Free Market.

Playing Devil's advocate:
Maybe consider that the Asian weaver might be doing something right rather than lambasting them. They are moving more yardage. They DO own the Highland wear industry now.

Food for thought:
Maybe Scottish weavers should take be taking notes rather than complaining. The Scots did invent modern economics. Are they just bemoaning their own system being used against them?

Lastly, this is CE 2014, not AD 1830.

We don't even say "AD" anymore. Times are a-changin'.

For the record, I love custom weaves and if I had the money I would buy them exclusively.

[jhockin]

That being said, I'm much more concerned with the condition of D.C. Dalgliesh. Any news?

Yes, inquiring minds would like to know. Given that Dr. Fiddes is a member here, and an advertiser, I fear the silence is ominous.

[HarveyH]

I come to this thread rather late and I also want to begin Oh Dear, where to start...

Oh dear, where to start. Is it an inferior finish (IT'S NOT A SELVEDGE), yes it is.

Selvedge
A selvedge is an edging of fabric in a weaving process to prevent fraying. Don't get confused by some here that it is anything else.

Peter (figheadair) will insist on his own private definition of selvedge which is not one used by the weaving industry and is not one that has been used for at least 150 years if not longer. The textile industries might refer to a 'woven selvedge' to describe the sort of selvedge which is woven in the edge of a cloth and that is, of course, what we want for a kilt.

I think it is hugely disrespectful to those in the industry to confuse people by using the term 'glued' for a selvedge method which involves no glue (a tuck selvedge) and produces an edge which, for most people is OK at a price which many can afford. Economics matter.

Some weavers are indeed still using old looms so that they can create a woven selvedge. This is expensive. It always has been. Over a hundred years ago such woven selvedges were considered rare and expensive and something that few weavers would ever have recourse to (see for example Murphy, The Textile Industries, volume 5).

More interesting for those of us who want a woven selvedge but at something like the price we can afford are the developments in some parts of the Industry. House of Edgar, for example, switching production to single width cloth which has a woven selvedge on one edge only and a cut leno selvedge on the other edge. It allows the production of a woven selvedge on a faster modern loom at a lower production cost, but also avoids Peter's objections to the (just) visible difference you get on a tuck selvedge.

Dalgleish is not the only weaver

Secondly there are the concerns raised here and in the Selkirk press about the future of D C Dalgleish. I do think we need to be clear here that Dalgleish is not the only company weaving worsted tartan cloth with a woven selvedge. They were just about the only company that did not have a minimum weaving length and would sell retail, and that meant that you could order a single kilt length of cloth. However get 4 people together who all want the same tartan and any number of weavers will weave for you, bespoke, your choice of colours etc. I have recently seen some cloth woven by Andrew Elliot ltd, very beautiful it was too and with the sort of selvedge that Peter would be happy to call a selvedge. But I could not order from them as I am not a trade customer, then that is why I go to my Kilt maker.

[bonnie heather]

Recently I contacted D.C.Dalgliesh to ask if their Wallace Blue Dress tartan is in stock. They replied "Yes" but it has a tuck-in selvedge.
I was quite startled to hear that because I thought all of their tartans are woven with a traditional selvedge.
In this case, I decide to go ahead and order the tartan anyway, because it's for a highland dance kilt that I'll make with a hem. It's their light weight fabric.

On the other hand, I feel concerned that for future orders, it's important that I confirm that the tartan definitely has a traditional selvedge.

A few weeks ago they sent a long length of custom woven tartan that does indeed have a traditional selvedge. I unrolled the entire length (about 20 yards) and carefully inspected it. To their credit, I'm happy to say, the weaving was perfect.

[sydnie7]

Yes, Harvey, where to begin. I appreciate many if not all of your points. At the risk of introducing a bit of satire (always a dangerous move), this thread brings to mind a recent Nike commercial.

I do appreciate the esthetics of a traditional woven selvedge. But if somebody is close enough to my husband's knees to tell the difference. . . well, that's just too close!

[KiltedKnome]

Yes, Harvey, where to begin. I appreciate many if not all of your points. At the risk of introducing a bit of satire (always a dangerous move), this thread brings to mind a recent Nike commercial.

I do appreciate the esthetics of a traditional woven selvedge. But if somebody is close enough to my husband's knees to tell the difference. . . well, that's just too close!

Levity! I love it....thanks Sydnie7! (And a great commercial).

[Domehead]

Harvey H

Mr. MacDonald specifically clarified that "glue" was only his term. As well, he specifically spoke to those selvages denoted by the shuttle loom process: e.g. herringbone, and their ilk.

Re: Dalgliesh, there may-very-well-be other weavers of said particulars those on this forum seek. However, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Newsome, Ms. Tewksbury, Ms. Greene, et al, have shown considerable loyalty to D.C. Dalgliesh for many years. Our experience with Dalgliesh's product justifies their sentiment. It is only recently things in Selkirk have gone 6's & 7's, which seems an inevitable by-product of navigating a family business through considerable transition.

While your content is fantastic and certainly furthers the conversation, perhaps we shouldn't deduce things about a contribution that are specifically not articulated.

Ryan

[HarveyH]

Dear Ryan

Mr. MacDonald specifically clarified that "glue" was only his term. As well, he specifically spoke to those selvages denoted by the shuttle loom process: e.g. herringbone, and their ilk.

You are quite correct that Peter MacDonald states that 'glued' was only his term - and I hope I acknowledged that, but I believe very strongly that in a forum like this where people are not all acquainted with weaving, that to use a word such as 'glue' is wrong, as it clearly confused a number of people, and falsely suggests that actual glue is used in anything that is not a woven selvedge.

Equally to suggest that anything which is not a 'woven selvedge' is not a selvedge at all, is again simply not standard British, or American English usage and also not the standard technical usage of the textile industry.

Re: Dalgliesh, there may-very-well-be other weavers of said particulars those on this forum seek. However, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Newsome, Ms. Tewksbury, Ms. Greene, et al, have shown considerable loyalty to D.C. Dalgliesh for many years. Our experience with Dalgliesh's product justifies their sentiment. It is only recently things in Selkirk have gone 6's & 7's, which seems an inevitable by-product of navigating a family business through considerable transition.

The whole thread is about the demise of traditional tartan. A number of the comments about Dalgleish seemed to chime the two together. I was simply pointing out that even if D C Dalgleish ceased weaving ( which I sincerely hope does not happen) there are still other weavers who are weaving excellent worsted tartan on old looms with a woven selvedge.

[Orionson]

I have followed this thread with great interest from the start and whilst I can appreciate the grave concern expressed by many over the apparent and very real difficulties at Dalgliesh of late, I can't help but think - "hey, they are (quite literally) not the only game in town." The town in question, of course in this case, being Selkirk.

In December I had the distinct pleasure of spending a very enjoyable, informative and interesting 4-5 hours in Selkirk for the sole purpose of visiting with Robin Elliot of Andrew Elliot Weavers Ltd. http://www.elliot-weave.co.uk/ a mere stones through from Dalgliesh.

I went to see Robin to discuss a very special custom weave project to recreate the magical* cloth used in the circa 1800 MacDuff Tartan kilt which belongs to the Scottish Tartans Authority and which has featured here on X Marks in the beautiful photographs taken by Matt Newsome. (More on this project shortly in a separate new thread.)

I could not have been more pleased and impressed with Robin and his operation. His looms are over 100 years old and his tartan and tweed could not possibly be any more beautiful or authentic. Elliot's is still very much a family business still being run in the old traditional ways by the founder's family. My project involves not only custom weaving but custom dying of all of the colours required. The original cloth was a completely homespun affair using all natural organic plant dyes. Robin's trained eye was able to detect that there are actually three distinct shades of green in the cloth. I hadn't seen it myself until he had pointed it out to me. Sure enough, there are. There are no add on costs or additional set up charges for the custom dying. The all-in cost is £45 per meter for 16oz double width, and £35 per meter for single width. Can't beat that.

Furthermore, when you call them on the phone or send an email, it is Robin Elliot who answers. I like that.

Personally, I would not trust this very special project to anyone but Robin Elliot. He works closely with the Scottish Tartans Authority and came highly recommended.

So, ladies and gentlemen, regardless of whatever happens at Dalgliesh, there IS another game in town that still produces tartan and tweed in the old traditional ways.

If this isn't enough, Andrew Elliot Ltd. was commissioned to weave the tweed for Dr. Who's Overcoat in the last series.

*Magical because of the richness of the colour, the feel and the history of the cloth.

[Downunder Kilt]

Thanks for the heads up on this weaver Orionson, just had a look on the website and Facebook, seems very interesting. Cheers