American tartans

[EagleJCS]

Does anyone ever prosecutes any of these violations of the law?

No, more's the pity. Then more people might at least be aware of the law before they decide to break it. As I mentioned in my previous post the only penalty is in section 3 for using the flag in advertising. Even that isn't prosecuted much, as far as I'm aware, because the penalty is only $100 or 30 days in jail, or both at the court's discretion. The cost to file a suit outweighs the maximum fine these days.

Interesting that the USA mens and womens soccer teams wear a quite flaglike uniform

And the designer/selector of said uniforms was probably either unaware of the flag code, or didn't care.

Designing a tartan with red and white stripes laid out like the flag (13 stripes, alternating red and white, 7 red and 6 white, like BB has in his design) might be reminiscent of the flag, depending on the scale.

[AFS1970]

I rather like the Bicentennial / American St. Andrew's tartan(s) and have thought of trying to get a kilt in that one. As it would probably be a custom weave, I would need others to join in on the effort to make it financially worthwhile. I do like these somewhat more than the one Rocky made, although I don't dislike Rocky's by any means. I am not a fan of black tartans but I don't find them to be morbid or deathly. I have a XMTS kilt which is dark blue and I like that tartan.

As for the patriotic nature of the RWB tartans, I am not sure that any other method of color selection would work. Being that the USA is geographically a large place with several regions and climates, the idea of picking colors that represent anything else or that are found in nature might be too daunting a task. Glen's addition of the purple and amber are a cool idea, although on my screen the purple looks like a different red and the amber looks gold. When I first saw it, I thought it was red, white, blue & gold and might have been gold for another reason like the eagle on top of a flag pole or the fringe around some flags. Glen's explanation is much better.

The subdued colors are growing on me a bit, as they are still patriotic but not as flag like.

As for the girl in the picture, the flag is backwards, so it may not matter. As for the jeep, it was fairly common around 1976 for new fire engines to be painted the same way. I saw one that was still in service in the 1990's with the flag paint scheme. Old Navy does a new T-Shirt every year that has a flag on it, clearly violating both the rules about clothing and the one about using the flag in advertising. Nope nobody ever gets prosecuted for this or other similar violations.

[AFS1970]

Deleted - duplicate post

[BBNC]

No, more's the pity. Then more people might at least be aware of the law before they decide to break it. As I mentioned in my previous post the only penalty is in section 3 for using the flag in advertising. Even that isn't prosecuted much, as far as I'm aware, because the penalty is only $100 or 30 days in jail, or both at the court's discretion. The cost to file a suit outweighs the maximum fine these days.



And the designer/selector of said uniforms was probably either unaware of the flag code, or didn't care.

Designing a tartan with red and white stripes laid out like the flag (13 stripes, alternating red and white, 7 red and 6 white, like BB has in his design) might be reminiscent of the flag, depending on the scale.

Eagle, I just read the US Flag Code, and the impression I got was that it was talking about actual flags, or complete depictions of the flag, such as painting the flag on a building, not use of the various design elements for artistic expression. Neither the stars on a blue field, nor the red and white stripes are unique to the US flag, so are fair game. However, the Jeep shown might be questionable, as it comes mighty close to depicting a complete flag.

[Tobus]

No, more's the pity. Then more people might at least be aware of the law before they decide to break it. As I mentioned in my previous post the only penalty is in section 3 for using the flag in advertising. Even that isn't prosecuted much, as far as I'm aware, because the penalty is only $100 or 30 days in jail, or both at the court's discretion. The cost to file a suit outweighs the maximum fine these days.

You might want to take a look at this: http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30243.pdf

On the national level the Federal Flag Code provides uniform guidelines for the display of and respect shown to the flag. In addition to the Code, Congress has by statute designated the national anthem and set out the proper conduct during its presentation. The Code is designed “for the use of such civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments” of the federal government. Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups.

The Federal Flag Code does not purport to cover all possible situations. Although the Code empowers the President of the United States to alter, modify, repeal, or prescribe additional rules regarding the flag, no federal agency has the authority to issue “official” rulings legally binding on civilians or civilian groups. Consequently, different interpretations of various provisions of the Code may continue to be made. The Flag Code itself, however, suggests a general rule by which practices involving the flag may be fairly tested: “No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America.” Therefore, actions not specifically included in the Code may be deemed acceptable as long as proper respect is shown.

Furthermore, our First Amendment provides freedom of speech which would invalidate any attempt to limit what one can do with the US flag. The Supreme Court has ruled that it's even legal to desecrate it as a form of exercising free speech. So, long story short, Americans can do whatever they want with the US flag, or depictions of it, for any purpose they desire. There is no vehicle for prosecution of misuse of the flag.

[briansbarkery]

Very nice. I like your thoughts on the amber and purple, McMurdo. Now if we can get enough people together that like it maybe Rocky can get some made up for us.

[TheOfficialBren]

You might want to take a look at this: http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30243.pdf


Furthermore, our First Amendment provides freedom of speech which would invalidate any attempt to limit what one can do with the US flag. The Supreme Court has ruled that it's even legal to desecrate it as a form of exercising free speech. So, long story short, Americans can do whatever they want with the US flag, or depictions of it, for any purpose they desire. There is no vehicle for prosecution of misuse of the flag.

You beat me to it. I was about to say that it's a quirk in the American legal tradition.

It is the law...but enforcing the law in this case violates a higher law, the 1st ammendment of the US Constitution therefore invalidating the law in the first place.

Spitting on the sidewalk is technically illegal in some places still. No one enforces that law either.

[EagleJCS]

Eagle, I just read the US Flag Code, and the impression I got was that it was talking about actual flags, or complete depictions of the flag, such as painting the flag on a building, not use of the various design elements for artistic expression. Neither the stars on a blue field, nor the red and white stripes are unique to the US flag, so are fair game. However, the Jeep shown might be questionable, as it comes mighty close to depicting a complete flag.

The last few lines of section 3 - although rather wordy - state:

"The words “flag, standard, colors, or ensign”, as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either,(bolded by me - JCS) made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, (JCS) by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America."

I take that as being fairly clear that they're talking about either an entire flag, or anything that - by its appearance - would make an average person think that a US flag (or colors, standard or ensign) is being represented either in whole or in part. Argument might be made that other countries also use a similar arrangement of stripes (Liberia and Malaysia come to mind), but I would argue that when that particular combination of red and white stripes (whether 13, or any smaller number in that proportion) is seen in the US, the US flag comes to mind.

Section 8, part (j) starts with "No part of the flag ..." which I take as either the stars on a blue field and/or the stripes, taken together or separately. But, that's my interpretation. Others may read that differently.

As is pointed out in the document Tobus noted (p. 4):

" ... the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups.

The Federal Flag Code does not purport to cover all possible situations. ...

Consequently, different interpretations of various provisions of the Code may
continue to be made."

It goes on to state (p.17):

"While wearing the colors may be in poor taste and offensive to many, it is

important to remember that the Flag Code is intended as a guide to be followed on

a purely voluntary basis to insure proper respect for the flag. It is, at least,

questionable whether statutes placing civil or criminal penalties on the wearing of

clothing bearing or resembling a flag could be constitutionally enforced in light of

Supreme Court decisions in the area of flag desecration."

ANYhoo, we're getting WAYYYY off the original topic. There are entire web forums dedicated to discussion of just this one topic. I've also said my piece about the original topic as well, so 'nuff said. Apologies to the OP for the redirection.

[OC Richard]

Beautiful tartan concept there McMurdo! Lovely subtle colour shifts so that it's still "red white and blue" but yet attractive and clothlike and not looking like a diagram or flag.

On the other topic, interesting that the USA Mens and Womens soccer uniforms have the red and white stripes of the flag, and a blue field, but the badge worn on the shirt, the logo itself, is careful not to replicate the flag; note that the stars are on a red field and the stripes are blue and white

[seanachie]

You might want to take a look at this: http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30243.pdf



Furthermore, our First Amendment provides freedom of speech which would invalidate any attempt to limit what one can do with the US flag. The Supreme Court has ruled that it's even legal to desecrate it as a form of exercising free speech. So, long story short, Americans can do whatever they want with the US flag, or depictions of it, for any purpose they desire. There is no vehicle for prosecution of misuse of the flag.

I disagree with this comment, and think the importance is great enough to include.

If you have the flag raised at night and it is not properly illuminated you can be cited. There are other violations of the US Flag code adopted by a joint resolution of Congress in June 1942 that can be cited as well. If you are displaying a torn or tattered flag that is another example. There are other examples I am aware of but do not have immediate references for. My understanding is if you use the flag as a symbol of distress and the USCG responds there are consequences as well.