Wearing the kilt in Scotland

[Manxstralian]

OK, another one. How about the Black Watch? At one games here in the U.S. someone called me a murderer - does this bring up bad images of post Culloden and/or the Clearances?

Really? That's absurdly offensive! They would have gotten a bump on the nose from me!

Tell them it's Grant Hunting.

Actually, my first time kilted was at the MacLean Centenary Gathering, and I wore a Black Watch kilt (without being aware of the Campbell situation). If I can wear it amongst 1000 MacLeans without comment, I'm sure you'll have no issues.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Jock Scot]

OK, another one. How about the Black Watch? At one games here in the U.S. someone called me a murderer - does this bring up bad images of post Culloden and/or the Clearances?

This situation is precisely the type of thing that I was alluding to earlier. Visitors from anywhere in the world visiting anyplace in the world are best advised to keep quiet about local history, or in the case above, out of other peoples history. History is the past, its interesting, it has relevence to the present on occasion and it can be devisive and unhelpful. Armies of all decriptions have marched and counter marched their way around this world since Adam was a boy, some had bad reputations, some units within that army may have a bad reputation and some individuals gathered a bad reputation and the British Army is no more perfect than anyone else's, but I have to say that its reputation is considerably better than some that I can think of! On the other hand, those that came up against any army are hardly likely to have fond memories of them whatever the end result may be. To be blunt, armies deal in death, get real. But its what happens when bugles cease to blow that matters and that is where we are now in Scotland.

We do not need outsiders, who may have a historical grudge to bear, making ill-informed and unhelpfull comments as it just shows total ignorance of the present day situation. The past is the past and what was acceptable 600---300---100----20 years ago, is not now and I make no excuses, or apologies for the past deeds of armies, units or individuals of the past.Yes terrible things were done, even by historical standards, but now is now.

The Black Watch are often thought by visitors to have fought at Culloden, they did not. They were fighting in the Low Countries(Holland/Belgium) at the time.

I think the "murderer" comment was probably to do with more recent events in Ireland--probably the period around the time of Irish independence. A civil War in effect and the Black Watch were part of the British Army. They did their job as was seen appropriate at the time as any army does, and yes, maybe with the benefit of hindsight and from the comfort of an arm chair, historians and those involved can dwell on reasons, tactics, effects, results and lessons from that time and within reason, that is no bad thing.

I will just finish this rather long winded explanation with this. Scotland has buried the hatchet very successfully, the Island of Ireland with its more recent troubles are now trying really hard to bury their hatchet too and comments like "murderers" are far from helpful, particularly from those that do not live(I assume) within the countries involved.

So to finally to answer the question, the Black Watch tartan can be worn by anyone with pride in Scotland, although I think many here regard the tartan as a priviledge for those who served in that proud Regiment.

[BCAC]

OK, another one. How about the Black Watch? At one games here in the U.S. someone called me a murderer - does this bring up bad images of post Culloden and/or the Clearances?

I have to agree with our "statesman" Jock Scott, but I think he gave you a rather "politically correct" explanation. I would just say that the person who called you a murderer at a games in the US was trying to be more Scots than the Scottish (and also trying to show off his perceived historical knowledge, however correct or incorrect that perceived knowledge actually is).

[Jock Scot]

I have to agree with our "statesman" Jock Scott, but I think he gave you a rather "politically correct" explanation. I would just say that the person who called you a murderer at a games in the US was trying to be more Scots than the Scottish (and also trying to show off his perceived historical knowledge, however correct or incorrect that perceived knowledge actually is).

Question: Why write 200 words when two would do?

Answer: Because my two word reply, where the second word was "off", would have got me into an awful lot of trouble with the mods.!

[WillowEstate]

I have to agree with our "statesman" Jock Scott, but I think he gave you a rather "politically correct" explanation. I would just say that the person who called you a murderer at a games in the US was trying to be more Scots than the Scottish (and also trying to show off his perceived historical knowledge, however correct or incorrect that perceived knowledge actually is).

Hmm, I don't think I would agree with your suggestion of "politically correctness", I think Jock was explaining, from his first hand knowledge, the present day situation in Scotland.

That said, I think you are spot on with the rest of your assessment.

[kilttrip]

Well said BCAC. I think you are entirely correct. I did get that impression at the time. I thank you too, Jock Scott, your post has made me feel better about wearing the kilt. Not that I was ashamed or even self-conscious about wearing it, but it did give me a bit of pause. You were both right in basically saying that I should consider the source. One foolish uttering from some person (who knows what kind of a day he was having) does not bring shame on an otherwise proud Regiment.
Cheers

PS - Thank you Jock Scott for the heads up. If I ever make it to your beautiful country I will bring a kilt or two other than the Black Watch since I did not serve. Wouldn't want to assume a place that I have not occupied. ;-)

[kilttrip]

How about non-tartan kilts, such as the Utilikilt? Would just a plain kilt of all one color be acceptable?

[Calgacus]

How about non-tartan kilts, such as the Utilikilt? Would just a plain kilt of all one color be acceptable?

I have seen a handful of plain black or very dark black & grey tartans worn in Scotland. Always by younger men (aged under 30, roughly), but always in the form of traditional kilts. I don't recall ever seeing a contemporary kilt such as a Utilikilt worn in Scotland. They may occasionally be seen in Glasgow or Edinburgh, which are a bit more cosmopolitan, but it's not something I've personally ever seen.

Having said that, I don't think a contemporary kilt would draw any more attention than it would anywhere else in the world. In some ways it might even go more unnoticed than a traditional kilt, as the wearer couldn't really be accused of 'doing it wrong'.

[figheadair]

Jock's reply (#72) is, as ever, spot on. History is interesting and often a useful moral compass but we cannot change it nor can we be held responsible for the historical behaviour of others.

[imrichmond]

Two years ago, one member of the pipe band I was touring Scotland with wore a contemporary kilt to the band's first rehearsal the day after our arrival in Scotland. He was the only one in any kind of kilt on that occasion and I never saw him wear that contemporary kilt again during the three weeks we were in the country. I don't know why he chose not to wear it, but this was the only contemporary kilt I saw on that trip, although traditional kilts in all-black seemed to be popular items in a number of highland-dress shops. I rather doubt that utilikilts, cargo kilts and the like are generally known in Scotland. Apart from pipers and drummers and one tourist office representative in Dunfermline, the only kilts of any kind I saw anywhere in public were in a couple of obvious wedding parties. (In this context, the so-called Saltire kilts appeared to be popular. These are blue kilts that display a large white saltire on the pleats, sort of like wearing a target on your back only a bit lower. Can't say I'm a fan.)

Since our band was performing almost daily and often in more than one venue, we were almost constantly kilted for the three weeks. As we wandered around on our own and in small groups before or after our performances, people recognized that we were part of the pipe band whose performances had been well advertised and either made no comment on the kilt or else made very positive ones. I recall one elderly Scot who approached me after our parade on the main street of Hawick and told me with tears in his eyes that he had never felt so proud to be a Scot. Things like that make the whole trip worthwhile.

The only time in more than 50 years of wearing a kilt that I have been accosted about the tartan I was wearing was some years ago at the Alma Highland Games in Michigan. A couple of young women, one American, the other an obviously recent immigrant from Glasgow, stopped by our band that was taking a break from tuning up and asked what tartan I was wearing. "MacLean of Duart," I replied. The Scottish woman then asked if I was a MacLean. On learning that I wasn't, she informed me that in Scotland it was "illegal" to wear someone else's tartan. Her American friend then informed me, as if it wasn't obvious, that her friend was from Scotland and therefore knew about these things. Neither one was able to tell me how Scottish pipe bands manage to find a full complement of players all with the same clan affiliation, but the Scot was adamant that they must be able to do it.