Two Telling comments? The Answer Perhaps?

[Calgacus]

I agree that this list should become a sticky, although I must say I lament that this is the all-encompassing list.

Now, about that last part:

I think that might be the real issue to tackle. When attending one of the events on the list, I think one can get away with being more elaborate with the kilt kit worn.

But if one is to be an everyday kilt wearer, then it would seem from the last comment (and I agree) that the person who does so pulls off a bit of a different "this was easy for me" vibe to the way they wear the kilt when not falling into one of the rigid categories on the list. I wonder if it would be possible to somehow capture how this is done and promote that both for Scots (born and raised and living in Scotland) AND for tourists. Because it seems that what bothers Scots about tourists in kilts is that they are garish and don't do it right. This may be a pipe dream, but what would be wrong with simply changing the mentality from "Look at that idiot tourist making a mockery of the kilt, lets roll our eyes and talk behind his back and think smug things..." to "Look at that tourist who has no clue what he is doing. We should set him straight." I know that changing mentalities is not easy, but it can be done if people care to make the change.

So is it possible to define exactly what makes one look like an eveyday kilt wearer? What differentiates this from the more typical outfit? Might be a worthwhile exercise, because a tourist (for instance) who can pull off that look might come across quite differently than one who behaves like the subject of the Aly MacRae song The Tartan Atrocity (If you haven't heard it and you are a member of this forum, it is worth a listen for the laugh).

Slàinte

Ok, I'll have a go.

Please bear in mind that these are just my thoughts, and they (like the Pirate Code) are not rules, more simply guidelines. They can be bent or broken, but if what you are trying to achieve is to blend in, then it might be best to aim for as many as possible. I don't want to come across in any way as a 'kilt kop', I'm simply stating what I believe is the best way to wear a kilt in Scotland and not stand out. Note that there are different 'rules' for 'youngsters' and 'oldies'. The cut-off is vague, but I'm going to say forty-something. I'm forty-something and find it a 'difficult age'. Too old for the Duncan MacKay look, yet too young for the full tweed look (arguably!). I'm also restricting this to day wear only.

Headgear- None! Simple as that. Yes, yes, I know Jock Scot regularly wears a Balmoral but as a tourist trying to blend in, a Balmoral or a Glengarry is not going to help you. As an 'oldie', you might get away with it, as a 'youngster', definitely not.

Upper body- There are a couple of options here, depending on weather, town/country, and age. The first is shirt, tie & tweed jacket. THCD if you like. The shirt should be Tattersall or plain, the tie striped, school, regimental or plain, and a tweed Argyll. Personally I think you'll only blend in with this look if you are an 'oldie'. The second option is the sweater. It can be worn over a shirt or a T-shirt. If worn over a shirt, you will have more leeway for taking it off and still blending in. Jackets of the Barbour type work well pretty much any time and anywhere for all ages.

Belt- Not too important, but probably best to keep it plain and broad.

Sporran- One of the many standard pattern day or 'hunting' varieties, in brown or black

Kilt- Traditional, clan or district tartan. Wear the lower edge somewhere between the top and middle of the kneecap. Kilt pins are just fine, and optional.

Hose- Plain, and coloured. There are some tartans which actually suit cream hose really well, but over the past few decades the rental industry has rather claimed cream hose as their own, so in order not to look like you rented your kilt, they are best avoided. Avoid white hose entirely, and also try to avoid socks which are not proper kilt hose. Some work just fine, but these are simple guidelines here, so I'm keeping it simple.

Flashes/garters- Stick to flashes in simple red, green or blue as appropriate. I'm going to suggest avoiding garter ties, as although they have a long pedigree, they were pretty much extinct until their relatively recent reintroduction, and so might draw some attention.

Sgian- Optional.

Shoes- Black brogues (wingtips) are by far the safest option. Maybe Caterpillar or Timberland style workboots, and just possibly subdued trainers (sneakers). No ghillie brogues, no sandals, no knee-length boots etc.

The secret here is keeping it plain and simple, but with attention to detail. Kilt at the right height, hose at the right height, flashes not too long, etc. All these things will add up to an outfit that looks just right. One or two deviations will probably look ok, but stray too far and the look will be lost.

JohntheBiker pretty much nailed it in post #32 of this thread-

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...19/index4.html



To my eye his kilt is a tiny fraction low, but not enough to draw attention. If I'd walked past him in the street I'd have assumed him to be a local.

[Cyd]

Originally Posted by CeilidhDoc
...This may be a pipe dream, but what would be wrong with simply changing the mentality from "Look at that idiot tourist making a mockery of the kilt, lets roll our eyes and talk behind his back and think smug things..." to "Look at that tourist who has no clue what he is doing. We should set him straight." I know that changing mentalities is not easy, but it can be done if people care to make the change.

Slàinte




One of the first things I did when I joined this forum was start a thread about fly plaid etiquette because my first involvement with a Scottish "gathering" in America was so completely foreign to me. I figured "to each his own" and sought some advice as to what was appropriate when here as opposed to Scotland. I was convinced that I shouldn't bow to the well-intentioned mistakes of tradition I found in my new home. That I should lead by example, and although I would never spoil a party by rudely telling someone they were doing something as trivial as dress wrong, that this forum might be a good place to start getting some of these North American misconceptions of proper Highland Dress resolved.

Absolute nonsense.

Just read through this thread, or the sticky entitled "Kilt Kops." You're quite right to have labeled your suggestion a "pipe dream." In my short time here I see little desire to learn or listen. There is rather a smug satisfaction that all is right to the extent in the posts above some actually claim that we should bring daily kilt wearing back to Scotland because the Scots have lost touch with their heritage!!! and these same people think kilt kops are arrogant and egotistical??!! In short there ARE Scotsmen, right here in this forum, TELLING you politely when you have it wrong and they are consistently being ridiculed and quashed.

"Unwashed masses" as one former moderator above termed Scots that don't normally wear kilts? YOU ARE THE UNWASHED MASSES!! You are just too full of your own self-importance to realize it.

[The Q]

Originally Posted by McMurdo ... I am sorry you feel the way you do and I am sorry your friend feels the way he does regarding the kilt. To my mind one way to change the mindset would be for Scots, real Scots, to wear the kilt and show the unwashed masses how to do it right.

Change the word "Scots" to Gaels and you would be correct, a Gael and a Scot are not the same thing

[Cyd]

Originally Posted by McMurdo ... I am sorry you feel the way you do and I am sorry your friend feels the way he does regarding the kilt. To my mind one way to change the mindset would be for Scots, real Scots, to wear the kilt and show the unwashed masses how to do it right.

Change the word "Scots" to Gaels and you would be correct, a Gael and a Scot are not the same thing

Except that.... oh why bother.

[Jock Scot]

Steady on Cyd! I agree with much of what you say and it is refreshing to have a fellow traveler along for the journey! However, once the wounded pride of those from outwith these shores has been soothed, the preconceived ideas from those from outwith Scotland have been adjusted, there is in fact, a fair proportion of those on this website that do really want to learn about Highland attire and attached traditions.

When I joined this website some years ago, almost anything vaguely traditional was met with, er um well, lets say, with polite scepticism and not a little derision. I was amongst a wee band of regular kilt wearers--- traditionalists as we are now called here----- with not only a good knowledge of kilt attire, but also realistic views on Scotland, its traditions AND an understanding-----better by far than mine------ of the rather starry-eyed and fanciful view of things from outwith these shores.

As pendulums do, things began to swing towards the rather less modern outlook and more than a few here that were interested enough to learn about the more normal(traditional) kilt attire and the traditions that go with it and eventually the tide turned. Sadly many stalwarts fell by the wayside as they had enough of the stubborn resistance and more than a little hostility from more than a few here. Which was and is still a sad loss of expertise and wisdom to all kilt wearers, but particularly to those that were and are still showing interest in learning about the more traditional ways of wearing the kilt.

The pendulum looks as though its starting to swing the other way again now, as I see a wish of many wanting to break the mould and thats fine as things rarely stay the same, but I do wish that whilst they are busily kicking at the traces they could also break those damned rose tinted glasses!

But all through my time here, with sometimes causing the odd ripple or two myself, everyone has really tried hard to be agree-able whilst dis-agreeing. That is something that I am proud to be a part of and is a goal that we should all aim for, however frustrating things may get!

[Cyd]

JockScot

Thank you for your wise words. I appreciate there are many civil people here with a genuine desire to share and learn. My angst is raised by only a few. I have been a teacher and a professor for many years and blame no one for ignorance. Lord knows we are all ignorant of much. Unfortunately I have few filters when it comes to dealing with foolishness. I didn't even get half-way through this thread before stumbling over some quite offensive posts that no one apparently found any fault with, yet questioning those posts is now offensive? I suppose if you are going to presume to restore another country's heritage, Scotland is as good a place as any to start. The only question is, where will such like-minded X-markers go next to inform the allegedly misinformed: East to Norway? West to Ireland? or perhaps south to France!

I think it is best for me to bow out of discussions. There is much here I would like access to and I don't wish to get banned because I am easily aggravated by foolish rabble.

[Jock Scot]

JockScot

Thank you for your wise words. I appreciate there are many civil people here with a genuine desire to share and learn. My angst is raised by only a few. I have been a teacher and a professor for many years and blame no one for ignorance. Lord knows we are all ignorant of much. Unfortunately I have few filters when it comes to dealing with foolishness. I didn't even get half-way through this thread before stumbling over some quite offensive posts that no one apparently found any fault with, yet questioning those posts is now offensive? I suppose if you are going to presume to restore another country's heritage, Scotland is as good a place as any to start. The only question is, where will such like-minded X-markers go next to inform the allegedly misinformed: East to Norway? West to Ireland? or perhaps south to France!

I think it is best for me to bow out of discussions. There is much here I would like access to and I don't wish to get banned because I am easily aggravated by ignorant rabble.

I hear what you say, Cyd and many(not all) of the sentiments you voice I am totally at ease with. Nevertheless, there are ways of saying things that we over here have no problem with, but those over there do! Indeed there are some outrageous things said on occasion by those outwith these shores, but on the whole I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, but It does stretch my tolerance more than somewhat! I still have to really think about how I phrase things and constantly edit my posts to try to avoid upset. It usually takes me three times as many words in a post and I still never feel that I say what I really want to say!!!!!But that is the nature of international websites, I suppose. Stick around, your insight is very handy!

[CeilidhDoc]

Cyd, with all due respect, I find your post offensive.

Generalizing that an individual can be judged by prior experience with others is what is rubbish. I am an American, and I have spent a VERY significant amount of time attempting to learn and listen, and adjust what I do based on comments by people who know more than me. I have asked not a few questions on this forum and had some great feedback which I have used to modify my approach to highland attire in many ways. I never ridicule well-intentioned critiques. I thank those that take the time to post them.

If you spend enough time researching things you eventually develop a sense for what is general tradition, what is personal opinion, and who is being mean and who is being genuine in trying to help but has something potentially unpleasant to say. And on different days, different people might fit one or another category depending on their mood and a million other variables, but often there is a trend on this forum of who you can trust and I would say that for that on XMTS I find many.

I would say that one really cannot generalize about if an American or a Scot is more in touch with their own heritage. I lived in Scotland for only 6 months, and it was about 20 years ago. But while there I met Scots who could school anyone on their knowledge of highland dress, and Scots who themselves made a mockery of highland tradition but they really could have cared less. Similarly, in the USA I know many well-meaning Americans who take the step of wearing the kilt to honor their heritage but have no reasonable guidance on how to do it properly. I also know a number of forum members that live quite close to me in the San Francisco Bay Area that know more about traditional highland dress than most Scots I knew in Scotland. I don't know them well, but I know enough to know what they know.

What you seem to be addressing is a group of people who cannot take constructive critique. I agree that without the ability to do this one cannot grow or learn, and it is a common fault of members of the human race to have issues with this regardless of where they were born or their specific genetics. But if we do not strive to improve ourselves, then what the hell is the point?

Let's behave like intellectual creatures rather than simple animals. Humans have a hard time doing what they often assume to be their birthright, which is to elevate their behavior above that of other animals. Treating one another with respect is a very basic thing that can go a long way. I might suggest that you attempt to implement a bit more of that into your own interactions. There is some constructive critique for you. For me, I will continue to have pipe dreams that one day people will simply treat each other more nicely. It is a sad commentary that this too is a pipe dream.

Slàinte

[CDNSushi]

Folks,

Please take this as fair warning, that the moderators have already received a flag based on recent posts in this thread, and to that end, I would strongly suggest that everyone take a good, deep breath, and before hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button. Reconsider what you may be reacting to and what you are trying to achieve in posting your thoughts.

[Cyd]

CeilidhDoc, I was referring to my experience with the group, not you personally. If that offends you I can't help you. It is my experience. There are always exceptions and you certainly can't reasonably expect each of those to be isolated when referring to an overall impression. In fact, I have no idea how one would go about generalizing about an individual as you suggest. In any event, I didn't do any such thing. You are interpreting my comments in an obviously erroneous manner as if to manufacture offense. I simply quoted you to point out that your proposal was already occurring in this very forum. I was, perhaps too subtly for some, pointing out that it isn't the purveyor of information whose attitude must change but the receivers. The information has been offered and is being rejected!

Beyond your first paragraph, I couldn't agree with you more. My issue was with the arrogance of another (non-Scot) presuming he was going to restore Scotland's lost heritage by bringing back casual kilt attire, something that was never a Scottish tradition, save perhaps for a short period amongst a small minority in the highlands.

As to respect, it took quite a bit to get me to this point. Most of that can be described as utter disrespect for not me (although there is some of that) but my country, fellow countrymen and culture. It is easy and common to lecture someone about respect after an expression of anger in the wake of disrespect. In practice it is nothing more than meaningless cliche that fails to address the actual problem.

There are some very useful things on this site. I can access them without suffering the aggravation that comes with interacting with the stupidity that surrounds them. It is of no matter to me what you care to do. Go on thinking you have all the answers and making asses of yourselves each time you leave these shores, and just so we are clear "you" refers to those in the forum who indulge in such behaviour and not to you personally.