Two Telling comments? The Answer Perhaps?

[Ron Abbott]

I think Creagdhubh has a very unique perspective being both an American and so closely involved with his family and clan in Scotland which is often very helpful to guys like me.

Slàinte!

Now there's another thing that to a Scot nowadays is just completely bizarre.....

"so closely involved with his family and clan in Scotland"

What on earth is that all about?
Clan?

Born, brought up in Scotland, heavily involved in the piping scene for years and used to drink in the well known Edinburgh folkie/gaelic haunts and yet I have never, ever come across a single person who wa ,'closely involved with his clan', other than the son of certain aristocrat who had no choice but to 'play at clans'.

Coming over to Scotland to see and meet your clan will certainly mark you out as a tourist.....big time!
It's the sort of thing that really does bring a smirk to the face.

"Aye, I'll have to ask MY CLAN chief whether I should grab my trusty basket hilted sword, mount Morag the garron and go out and reive some highlan' coos, today or....then again..... maybe I'll just get go into the office after Starbucks!"

[Manxstralian]

Now there's another thing that to a Scot nowadays is just completely bizarre.....

"so closely involved with his family and clan in Scotland"

What on earth is that all about?
Clan?

Born, brought up in Scotland, heavily involved in the piping scene for years and used to drink in the well known Edinburgh folkie/gaelic haunts and yet I have never, ever come across a single person who wa ,'closely involved with his clan', other than the son of certain aristocrat who had no choice but to 'play at clans'.

Coming over to Scotland to see and meet your clan will certainly mark you out as a tourist.....big time!
It's the sort of thing that really does bring a smirk to the face.

"Aye, I'll have to ask MY CLAN chief whether I should grab my trusty basket hilted sword, mount Morag the garron and go out and reive some highlan' coos, today or....then again..... maybe I'll just get go into the office after Starbucks!"

Not sure quite how to start this, but.... Are you suggesting that "Clans" have no relevance in Scotland, even as a cultural construct? And subsequent to that, only tourists are truly interested in their clan?

Furthering that line of thought, are you suggesting that Clan Chiefs and Societies (or Organisations, or whatever they happen to be called) only perform Clan Gatherings etc to gull ignorant tourists?

I met a lot of Scots (from Scotland) at a clan gathering (all of whom seemed genuinely excited to meet other "clansmen" (the chief's word, not mine), and to celebrate their common heritage), and since Clan MacPherson (simply used as an example) has one every year, it seems like a great deal of effort to generate what would be not a lot of income for the association, or the chief.

When I attended the MacLean gathering, I know we spent a hell of a lot more on accommodation and food (and beer) than we did on "Clan" events. Unless the Chief is in league with all of the B&B's, Pubs, and Motels and getting a kick-back, this seems to be an absurd proposition.

Granted, some clans may be more structured, or more "active" than others, but that doesn't mean that the sentiment doesn't hold true for some.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Ron Abbott]

There are always a few that will be interested.

The 'clan chiefs' and their families have good reason to try and maintain such links.....there's always a need to obtain funding for repairing castle roofs etc. and to ensure continuity in maintaining some sort of title for their offspring!

You just have to see some of them dressed up in their finest brigadoonery. The Range Rover with silver horse bonnet badge pulling up the Games, the brigade of guards regimental ties, the tartan car blanket over the shoulder, the feathers in the balmoral, the cromachs (do they try and outdo each other with a bigger one?) etc. etc..

Then there are the eccentrics.....you get that anywhere.

And of course there are those that enjoy the company of others and it's their hobby or special interest. This happens to be their thing. I have no animosity whatsoever to this group of people. They could equally be hill walkers, classic car enthusiasts, local archaeologists/historians, anglers, members of the local golf club or whatever, it just happens to be their interest.

The Clan MacPherson has long been one of those that has run a solid organisation, it is well known for that. Their balls etc. were long part of Scotland's society functions and in the past few decades perhaps best highlighted by the efforts of Dame Flora, the Clan MacLeod has also been organising events. There are a fair few minutes of old meetings of the Clan MacPherson on the internet and they make interesting reading.

But for the vast majority of Scots, these clan societies etc. are totally irrelevant.

[Domehead]

Mr. Abbott,

Your MO seems to conflate a highly subjective opinion with Longitudinal Sociological Analytics. Then, when confronted with contrarian experiences or evidence, either regress or succumb to the psychological phenomena "preconception". Through your contributions, I'm not quite sure what your intention is?

Ryan M Liddell

[Ron Abbott]

Mr. Abbott,

Your MO seems to conflate a highly subjective opinion with Longitudinal Sociological Analytics. Then, when confronted with contrarian experiences or evidence, either regress or succumb to the psychological phenomena "preconception". Through your contributions, I'm not quite sure what your intention is?

Ryan M Liddell

Based on personal experience....quite a lot of it in fact. Not preconception but reality.
My intentions? There are none, other to let others know that the Scotland they may believe exists today, largely doesn't.

Where do preconceptions lie. Perhaps with those that for whatever reason believe that the fairy tale is genuine.

And your problem with that, if any; is exactly what?

And by the way, mere 'Ron' or even the full name would have perhaps been more appropriate than what (albeit at face value) appears a much more aggressive 'Mr.'

[Manxstralian]

And by the way, mere 'Ron' or even the full name would have perhaps been more appropriate than what (albeit at face value) appears a much more aggressive 'Mr.'

I'm sure no disrespect was meant Ron,

If you read through Mr Liddell's posts, you'll find that's how he addresses people when their last name is obvious, I'm sure it's a gesture of respect, not aggression.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Nathan]

Ron,

If I understand you correctly, you seem to think that those abroad believe in a fairytale caricature of Scotland that includes clans, heather, thistles, whisky, haggis, kilts, Gaelic, glens, pipes, heavy events and that people don't understand that Scotland is a modern 21st Century society. Am I right?

While on the contrary, I think that most people grasp that modernity exists in Scotland as it does everywhere. We've all seen Trainspotting and have met the rabid, "what team do you support, then?" Scots footie fan at the pubs of our cities.

The romantic traditionalists who try to maintain threatened aspects of a once proud, distinct culture in the face of Globalization are not the majority here or there.

Most of the MacWhatevers abroad couldn't give two shakes about their clan either.

But some Scots and expats feel that the culture doesn't need to die just because the calendar reads 2014 and that it is the people who decide which traditions, if any, they will pass on and which ones they will discard.

You mock the chiefs' traditions of feathers, day plaids, cromachs and other traditional items whereas I respect them for carrying them on. They are as grand today as ever they were.

Perhaps your piping is just as silly to some Scottish rock fans as my tartan car blanket is to you.

Maybe if more Scots and Scots descendants within and without Scotland stood up for what makes us unique and demanded we bring it with us into the next century instead of rushing to assimilate to the Anglo-American McStarbuck's bland globalized corporate consumer iCulture proclaiming that to hold onto anything else is living in a fairytale from the past, everyone's grand children might just be grateful we did.

[TheOfficialBren]

My sister is quite active within the Cherokee nation. She is uninterested in our Highland roots. She's more likely to be found at a pow-wow or other Cherokee nation function than the Highland Games or a ceilidh. I respect that.
I am not terribly interested in our Cherokee roots or involved in the tribal activities (but I respect and understand it). I'm more comfortable at a ceilidh or the Highland Games than a pow-wow. She respects that.

It is people like my sister who insure that our traditional beliefs and practises are maintained for future generations.
It is people like Nathan and Kyle (I dare not throw myself into this category for fear of overstepping my bounds as a newbie but perhaps one day when I get it 'right') who aid in preserving the Scottish culture for future generations.

Does this make sense?

Do we see some folk wearing feather bonnets at Cherokee pow-wows (completely the wrong tribe, by the way)? Yup! Sure do. Do we marginalise them and treat them like dirt or talk crap about them behind their backs and snigger at their folly? No. It's just not done. We respect the culture and part of that means embracing our fellow humans as brothers and sisters. The First Nations Peoples (Native Americans) believe in connection rather than disconnection.

It is sometimes viewed by the ignorant as quaint or strange. It is a very organic worldview and we embrace the Cherokee diaspora feom around the nation and around the world (yes, there are many descendants of the Cherokee nation outwith the United States).

We yearn for this connection. We feel it. We live it. We embrace it.

The Cherokee Nation has many deep, deep roots with the Scottish people. In fact during the trail of tears, one of (if not the) darkest chapters in the history of our people our ranking chief was a Cherokee-Scot. Historical accounts are quite firm in stating that he was equally rooted in both cultures and the Cherokee people embraced him and his values.

I can relate to this man being of both Scottish AND Cherokee descent.

On the face of it I prefer the aesthetics of my family's Highland roots...but I have a deep respect for our Cherokee roots as well.

Maybe this is what *appears* to be "lost" (for lack of a more ample, sufficient word) in Scotland today?

There is little resentment amongst the Cherokee for past ills. We buried that tomahawk long ago. Maybe Scotland needs, HUMBLY submitted, to bury the claymore here?

Anglo-America (specifically English, not the PC misuse of "Anglo") sometimes has an odd relationship with Native America. There's a bit of over-compensation. With one foot in each stirrup I get it. It does no good to maintain the pain and hurt...but we shouldn't relish it or dwell on it.

Culloden was long ago. Let the dead rest. Let the hurts heal. Perhaps Scotland feels the same way about such things? We do not dwell on the trail of tears but we do not forget.

Forgiveness and understanding go a long way.

The kinship may however be stretched long past the breaking point and obliterated. Maybe we need to accept that, too?

If I misspoke I sincerely apologise. I truly want to understand and learn, my friends.

Sorry for the novel. This is a very serious issue and it merits our attention and respect.

[Manxstralian]

My sister is quite active within the Cherokee nation. She is uninterested in our Highland roots. She's more likely to be found at a pow-wow or other Cherokee nation function than the Highland Games or a ceilidh. I respect that.
I am not terribly interested in our Cherokee roots or involved in the tribal activities (but I respect and understand it). I'm more comfortable at a ceilidh or the Highland Games than a pow-wow. She respects that.

It is people like my sister who insure that our traditional beliefs and practises are maintained for future generations.
It is people like Nathan and Kyle (I dare not throw myself into this category for fear of overstepping my bounds as a newbie but perhaps one day when I get it 'right') who aid in preserving the Scottish culture for future generations.

Does this make sense?

Do we see some folk wearing feather bonnets at Cherokee pow-wows (completely the wrong tribe, by the way)? Yup! Sure do. Do we marginalise them and treat them like dirt or talk crap about them behind their backs and snigger at their folly? No. It's just not done. We respect the culture and part of that means embracing our fellow humans as brothers and sisters. The First Nations Peoples (Native Americans) believe in connection rather than disconnection.

It is sometimes viewed by the ignorant as quaint or strange. It is a very organic worldview and we embrace the Cherokee diaspora feom around the nation and around the world (yes, there are many descendants of the Cherokee nation outwith the United States).

We yearn for this connection. We feel it. We live it. We embrace it.

The Cherokee Nation has many deep, deep roots with the Scottish people. In fact during the trail of tears, one of (if not the) darkest chapters in the history of our people our ranking chief was a Cherokee-Scot. Historical accounts are quite firm in stating that he was equally rooted in both cultures and the Cherokee people embraced him and his values.

I can relate to this man being of both Scottish AND Cherokee descent.

On the face of it I prefer the aesthetics of my family's Highland roots...but I have a deep respect for our Cherokee roots as well.

Maybe this is what *appears* to be "lost" (for lack of a more ample, sufficient word) in Scotland today?

There is little resentment amongst the Cherokee for past ills. We buried that tomahawk long ago. Maybe Scotland needs, HUMBLY submitted, to bury the claymore here?

Anglo-America (specifically English, not the PC misuse of "Anglo") sometimes has an odd relationship with Native America. There's a bit of over-compensation. With one foot in each stirrup I get it. It does no good to maintain the pain and hurt...but we shouldn't relish it or dwell on it.

Culloden was long ago. Let the dead rest. Let the hurts heal. Perhaps Scotland feels the same way about such things? We do not dwell on the trail of tears but we do not forget.

Forgiveness and understanding go a long way.

The kinship may however be stretched long past the breaking point and obliterated. Maybe we need to accept that, too?

If I misspoke I sincerely apologise. I truly want to understand and learn, my friends.

Sorry for the novel. This is a very serious issue and it merits our attention and respect.

Nicely said mate!

Cheers,

Cameron

[Manxstralian]

But for the vast majority of Scots, these clan societies etc. are totally irrelevant.

Aren't the vast majority of Scot from the Lowlands? Perhaps that has an impact.

Cheers,

Cameron