Two Telling comments? The Answer Perhaps?

[MacLowlife]

I have enjoyed this, but I keep thinking of an expression that I believe originated in French- "to be more Catholic than the Pope"

It may not mean what it seems to in French, but I think it applies here somehow, where people gather to spend hunks of their lives talking about kilts- to some a garment, to others a symbol of heritage, to others still a National Costume, to others a National Dress.

This is not really the place to come if you want people to tell you to be casual- after all, this is a forum for people who don't merely wear kilts- they meet and discuss them, too. Since we frequently make comparisons, can anyone here imagine going to a web forum on jeans or sneakers? I am sure they exist and I expect the people there are similarly disinclined to be casual about, um... casual footwear.

As for Clans, Clan Lowlife is sort of like the Procrastinators' Club- we are constitutionally unsuited for gathering and organizing. But we love to watch others do so.

I have been a traveler and I have been on tours, but professional exposure to tourists has made me work hard to avoid that label. I doubt seriously that it did any good, but I did try.
Remember the old game of Sum, Es, Est?
I am a citizen of the world
You are away from home
He is a tourist

[Hawk]

My sister is quite active within the Cherokee nation.....I am not terribly interested in our Cherokee roots or involved in the tribal activities (but I respect and understand it).......
.....people like my sister who insure that our traditional beliefs and practises are maintained for future generations......
.......Do we see some folk wearing feather bonnets at Cherokee pow-wows (completely the wrong tribe, by the way)? Yup! Sure do. Do we marginalise them and treat them like dirt or talk crap about them behind their backs and snigger at their folly? No. It's just not done. We respect the culture and part of that means embracing our fellow humans as brothers and sisters. The First Nations Peoples (Native Americans) believe in connection rather than disconnection.....


.......We yearn for this connection. We feel it. We live it. We embrace it.


......I can relate to this man being of both Scottish AND Cherokee descent.


.......On the face of it I prefer the aesthetics of my family's Highland roots...but I have a deep respect for our Cherokee roots as well.


.........

I have been debating, within my mind and spirit, if I should jump into this thread, ever since it was first started, now days ago...( thank you OP for the "original" statement and question, and for starting an interesting thread ).


I've find many parallels, and many differences, when placed along side something Native People ( original/indigenous tribal people of this, commonly referred to as, America continent ) have been wrestling with since first contact with non-indigenous peoples. I have now decided, since TheOfficialBren's comment above, to weigh in with an observation. Please have patience with me as I attempt to put something foreign to many minds here, in a perspective that can be understood (...you might see a parallel with "some" of Bren's above ).


First of all, thank you Bren for bringing up certain things in your above comments that touch many indigenous familys, clans and tribal nations, and tribal descendants, on a regular basis. It appears, at least on this particular subject, that we have touched on an area that we as Indigenous People have been debating for, say, at least the last 600-700 years, ie - what makes a person who they are, in manners, respect, culture, outward appearance, actions, etc...


It depends on who you speak to, for as we have a joke within the Native culture, "if you have six natives in a room and ask a question, you'll get 9 different answers", as three of us will probably change our opinions before the debate over the answer is finialized.


For the sake of this thread, I will attempt to streamline my comments, now that I've stated the above info leading into my comment. The wearing of an item, inherently somewhat unique to a particular culture and people, sometimes gives license to misunderstanding and even a lack of respect, if taken out of context. You can see a debate, and even an underlying aggravation, as to this discussion as it relates to the wearing of "The Kilt" or even a "Kilt", what's proper, at what time and in what context.

Needless to say, just by this thread alone, you have witnessed a wide variety of opinions, and strong feelings as to the subject matter. I see the words "traditional" and "contemporary" thrown around, throughout the XMTS Forum. Many times, this not only refers to the clothing item and it's associated accessories, but to the personal feelings of when and where this item, the kilt, is to be worn. I've seen very strong opinions within both camps, so to speak.


I can can see, by many comments in this particular thread, that some members have a very strong personal/cultural connection to the wearing of The Kilt, and when and where it is worn. Is this correct and proper....to these people it goes a lot farther than just a clothing item, but borders on a sacred, cultural item, to be respected and worn in such a way to continue to show respect to ones family, clan, euro-tribal people and nation pride. Is there anything wrong in that - no, certainly not..


Others, of a different mindset, find the distant cultural identity, important to their family, but have a little less of a strict, and even sacred, attitude as to their wearing of the kilt. Nonetheless, it is important to their cultural identity and they attempt, sometimes in a less than accurate way, to express it. Sometimes this is to the horror of the more "traditional" kilt wearers, as mentioned above. Is this wrong - not necessary so either, if the simple attempt was unintentional in "trying to get it right" in a more basic way.


Then there are those that find the wearing of a kilt, more in the manner of a good, comfortable, positive piece of clothing, that they want to wear, whenever the mood strikes them. Is this wrong - certainly not, as these folk simply love the freedom and personal expression that this clothing item offers, and it's the right fit for them. They have the freedom to dress however they like.


Will moments come up when one or more of these people, in the wearing of a kilt, have a different opinion as to their manner of dress and when and where it's worn - yes, certainly. Important here though, is the fact that all these people, are wearing a garment, that is meaningful to them, in whatever context it's worn.


Will all these different folk, wear the kilt in a respectful manner? Well, if you're a traditionalist when it comes to when and where you wear your Kilt, you probably won't agree with all the other wearers of this garment, but you may respect the fact that it's worn. If it's more of a family connection for the wearer, and more done in a relaxed and contemporary environment, you probably have respect for the kilt, but by a different definition. If it's worn as strictly a clothing option for fashion, personal preference etc., will one respect the kilt? - in as much as one respects themselves and those around them. All three of these examples are correct in one sense, the wearing of a common garment, and appreciation of it. Will all people agree, no probably not.....but we as human beings should act in a more positive manner and appreciate our similarities and try to respect our differences.


Be Happy - Be Kilted ( if you chose so...)


a simple Tribal man's perspective......


Hawk

[KD Burke]

But for the vast majority of Scots, these clan societies etc. are totally irrelevant.

For the vast majority of Americans as well! Even among visitors to Highland Games, or even bagpipers, only a small percentage a
re actively involved in the local Scottish Society or in their clan organization.

Of course the same could be said of Mini Cooper Owner's groups, philatelist clubs, the Screen Actors' Guild or any other organization. To the vast majority of people it is irrelevant. To the people who choose to be involved, it can be both very rewarding and a source of tremendous consternation.

To an outsider, such organizations may appear to be frivolous. Perhaps even a foolish waste of time. But most of the time, even we Ugly Americans are too polite to make an issue of someone else's choice of hobbies.

This is NOT an attack on anyone's viewpoint or choice of verbiage! It is simply my own observation, prompted by Ron's comment.

[Calgacus]

I agree that this list should become a sticky, although I must say I lament that this is the all-encompassing list.

Now, about that last part:

I think that might be the real issue to tackle. When attending one of the events on the list, I think one can get away with being more elaborate with the kilt kit worn.

But if one is to be an everyday kilt wearer, then it would seem from the last comment (and I agree) that the person who does so pulls off a bit of a different "this was easy for me" vibe to the way they wear the kilt when not falling into one of the rigid categories on the list. I wonder if it would be possible to somehow capture how this is done and promote that both for Scots (born and raised and living in Scotland) AND for tourists. Because it seems that what bothers Scots about tourists in kilts is that they are garish and don't do it right. This may be a pipe dream, but what would be wrong with simply changing the mentality from "Look at that idiot tourist making a mockery of the kilt, lets roll our eyes and talk behind his back and think smug things..." to "Look at that tourist who has no clue what he is doing. We should set him straight." I know that changing mentalities is not easy, but it can be done if people care to make the change.

So is it possible to define exactly what makes one look like an eveyday kilt wearer? What differentiates this from the more typical outfit? Might be a worthwhile exercise, because a tourist (for instance) who can pull off that look might come across quite differently than one who behaves like the subject of the Aly MacRae song The Tartan Atrocity (If you haven't heard it and you are a member of this forum, it is worth a listen for the laugh).

Slàinte

Ok, I'll have a go.

Please bear in mind that these are just my thoughts, and they (like the Pirate Code) are not rules, more simply guidelines. They can be bent or broken, but if what you are trying to achieve is to blend in, then it might be best to aim for as many as possible. I don't want to come across in any way as a 'kilt kop', I'm simply stating what I believe is the best way to wear a kilt in Scotland and not stand out. Note that there are different 'rules' for 'youngsters' and 'oldies'. The cut-off is vague, but I'm going to say forty-something. I'm forty-something and find it a 'difficult age'. Too old for the Duncan MacKay look, yet too young for the full tweed look (arguably!). I'm also restricting this to day wear only.

Headgear- None! Simple as that. Yes, yes, I know Jock Scot regularly wears a Balmoral but as a tourist trying to blend in, a Balmoral or a Glengarry is not going to help you. As an 'oldie', you might get away with it, as a 'youngster', definitely not.

Upper body- There are a couple of options here, depending on weather, town/country, and age. The first is shirt, tie & tweed jacket. THCD if you like. The shirt should be Tattersall or plain, the tie striped, school, regimental or plain, and a tweed Argyll. Personally I think you'll only blend in with this look if you are an 'oldie'. The second option is the sweater. It can be worn over a shirt or a T-shirt. If worn over a shirt, you will have more leeway for taking it off and still blending in. Jackets of the Barbour type work well pretty much any time and anywhere for all ages.

Belt- Not too important, but probably best to keep it plain and broad.

Sporran- One of the many standard pattern day or 'hunting' varieties, in brown or black

Kilt- Traditional, clan or district tartan. Wear the lower edge somewhere between the top and middle of the kneecap. Kilt pins are just fine, and optional.

Hose- Plain, and coloured. There are some tartans which actually suit cream hose really well, but over the past few decades the rental industry has rather claimed cream hose as their own, so in order not to look like you rented your kilt, they are best avoided. Avoid white hose entirely, and also try to avoid socks which are not proper kilt hose. Some work just fine, but these are simple guidelines here, so I'm keeping it simple.

Flashes/garters- Stick to flashes in simple red, green or blue as appropriate. I'm going to suggest avoiding garter ties, as although they have a long pedigree, they were pretty much extinct until their relatively recent reintroduction, and so might draw some attention.

Sgian- Optional.

Shoes- Black brogues (wingtips) are by far the safest option. Maybe Caterpillar or Timberland style workboots, and just possibly subdued trainers (sneakers). No ghillie brogues, no sandals, no knee-length boots etc.

The secret here is keeping it plain and simple, but with attention to detail. Kilt at the right height, hose at the right height, flashes not too long, etc. All these things will add up to an outfit that looks just right. One or two deviations will probably look ok, but stray too far and the look will be lost.

JohntheBiker pretty much nailed it in post #32 of this thread-

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...19/index4.html



To my eye his kilt is a tiny fraction low, but not enough to draw attention. If I'd walked past him in the street I'd have assumed him to be a local.

[Calgacus]

As a bit of an interesting insight this last week - we outfitted three wedding parties where Scots had flown over to participate.

When the parties were in the shop I had time to ask the Scots about kilt wearing in Scotland v.s. in Victoria.

In each case, and that is by 8 resident Scots, I was told, very strongly, that White Hose with Ghillie Brogues, Prince Charlie with vest and Dirk Belt, Ruche Tie, and White Rabbit dress sporrans were the preferred manner of dress in Scotland for all events, even a beach wedding as these were.

As I have no White hose in my shop and carry no White Rabbit sporrans two of the Scots had decided to bring their own.

One party was outfitted with White hose that were purchased in Scotland and brought over by one of the guys.

In one party the Scots insisted on Dirk Belts with vests so everyone else had to be outfitted with them too.

And one party who had originally planned their beach wedding to be comfortable with the Groom in a white dress shirt with long tie but no jacket, and the groomsmen to wear off-white Jacobite shirts, changed at the last moment to Prince Charlie Coatees when told by the Scots that it is the only proper way for a wedding.

I'm sorry but these wedding parties ended up looking just like they had stepped out of the ubiquitous Scottish website.

I found it very strange and in direct opposition to what the Scots here tell us. The Scots in these parties said to me that they do not own a kilt and would only hire outfits when needed.

And one of gentlemen in his mid 50's told me that this standard cookie cutter look was how you told a real Scot from a tourist. He said that only a tourist would wear a kilt casually with a street shirt or colored hose. He told me that a colored Tweed Argyle was a dead give-away that the person was a tourist. He also said that anyone who owned their own kilt and wore it for anything other than a wedding or footie game was strange.

Hi Steve,

As Jock states above, there are no surprises here. I think it is often assumed that Scots know how to wear the kilt, either because the knowledge has been handed down to them, or because they are taught how to, somehow. The simple truth is that this is not the case. The number of Scots who have had knowledge passed down through the generations is probably very small. The history or the wearing of the kilt is not taught at school, nor anywhere else, and the media is no help here either. The vast majority of Scots wear their kilts in the way that the outfitter/hire shop told them to. They may modify that style by observing others, who in turn, you guessed it, are dressed the way their outfitter showed them.

[Calgacus]

Do native Scots on the whole see the kilt as dated I wonder?

No, I would not say that is the case.

[Ron Abbott]

Hi Steve,

As Jock states above, there are no surprises here. I think it is often assumed that Scots know how to wear the kilt, either because the knowledge has been handed down to them, or because they are taught how to, somehow. The simple truth is that this is not the case. The number of Scots who have had knowledge passed down through the generations is probably very small. The history or the wearing of the kilt is not taught at school, nor anywhere else, and the media is no help here either. The vast majority of Scots wear their kilts in the way that the outfitter/hire shop told them to. They may modify that style by observing others, who in turn, you guessed it, are dressed the way their outfitter showed them.

lol......just looking at some of the weddings, I think that is very true !

[TenorClef]

No, I would not say that is the case.

Ok....on one or two rare occasions here in North Yorkshire, I've seen some student walking down the high street with a top hat, that looked eccentric. You simply don't see it, it looks antiquated. I'd understand if it were a wedding or that top drawer horse event but other than that its not that common. A piper came to town and he had the full kilt outfit. No one blinked, no one thought it was odd, he got lots of photos because he was odd? Eccentric? I don't think so. Not sure a bloke wandering around the shops in my area would be seen the same way as that piper. Horses for Courses perhaps???

[Calgacus]

Ok....on one or two rare occasions here in North Yorkshire, I've seen some student walking down the high street with a top hat, that looked eccentric. You simply don't see it, it looks antiquated. I'd understand if it were a wedding or that top drawer horse event but other than that its not that common. A piper came to town and he had the full kilt outfit. No one blinked, no one thought it was odd, he got lots of photos because he was odd? Eccentric? I don't think so. Not sure a bloke wandering around the shops in my area would be seen the same way as that piper. Horses for Courses perhaps???

Wearing a top hat around here would also be seen as eccentric and/or antiquated. Wandering around here dressed as a piper, you'd be seen as, well, most likely a piper. Wandering around here dressed like JohntheBiker in the photo above would probably catch folks' eyes, but not raise an eyebrow. Would it be seen as old fashioned, outdated, anachronistic? Absolutely not.

[Nathan]

Ok....on one or two rare occasions here in North Yorkshire, I've seen some student walking down the high street with a top hat, that looked eccentric. You simply don't see it, it looks antiquated. I'd understand if it were a wedding or that top drawer horse event but other than that its not that common. A piper came to town and he had the full kilt outfit. No one blinked, no one thought it was odd, he got lots of photos because he was odd? Eccentric? I don't think so. Not sure a bloke wandering around the shops in my area would be seen the same way as that piper. Horses for Courses perhaps???

You're going to see this more and more. It's called steam punk fashion, it's a trend and it is growing. Watch for waxed curled mustaches, 19th Century attire but mixed with gears and mechanical tech gadgets.

N