Wearing the kilt in Scotland

[mookien]

As Ron points out, that's not really what happened. This documentary gives a nice little summary of what appears to have actually happened. The relevant section starts at 34:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6JDPd-T2BQ

This was one of the most fascinating segments in the entire series to me. Until recently the demise/disappearance of the Picts was a great historical mystery. It is also described in Neil Oliver's book, "A History of Scotland" roughly from pp. 49 to 55.

[Nathan]

I'm not 100% convinced that Kenneth MacAlpine was a Pict. I agree that he was the King of Pictland rather than Alba, but the current British Royal Family is German and the next King of Scotland won't be a Scot. Just because he ruled Pictland rather than Argyll, doesn't make him a Pict. The fact that MacAlpine's name follows Gaelic convention rather than Welsh/Cornish and that fact that he was remembered by his own progeny as the first King of Alba, leads me to question whether the influence of the Dal Riata Gaels of Argyll had taken hold in Pictland earlier than Oliver concludes. Is it possible that MacAlpine was, as King of Pictland, a Vice Roy to the O'Neils in Dal Riata?

Oliver is also conflating Alba/Albainn with Scotland but he should be careful about timing here. Albion is the oldest known name for all of Britain although it's name came to mean Scotland much later. The fact that the Romans used the term Scotti to refer to the Irish and the fact that the Gaels eventually ascended to take control of the Northern third of Britain is being down played by contemporary academics in favour of Vikings, Picts. Perhaps they would rather be linked to anyone but the Irish?

The fact is that if one goes through the history of the Highland Clans one at a time, two things become clear. The first is that many chiefs trace their own roots to minor Irish Kings and the second is that they maintained that connection back and forth with Ireland for centuries.

An example of how a little information can lead us astray. The Clan Donald DNA project posited that since all of the current Clan Donald Chiefs have a DNA haplogroup found more commonly in Scandanavia than Ireland; our own annals which link Somerled (Somhairle) back to the Irish King Conn of the Hundred Battles must be false. The Red Book of Clanranald along with other sources say Clan Donald is descended from Conn's son Colla Uais. Prior to being called Clan Donald, we were Clan Colla.

So, in order to sort it out, an inventory of all other families who claim descent from Clan Colla in Ireland and Scotland was conducted by another DNA project of Colla descendants. Much to everyone's surprise, notwithstanding their Irishness, these other families also had a high percentage of the same "Viking" haplogroup. This made me conclude that given the movement of peoples across those Islands over the centuries, it was ridiculous to call one haplogroup Irish and another Viking. There is no genetic homogeneity - just clusters and we're talking about the descendants of one Irish King who may or may not have had a typical genetic profile for his Island.

Be careful of jumping to "obvious" conclusions and rewriting history. Our forebearers weren't all romantic fools.

Anyway, that example is just my say of saying there could be a puzzle piece missing here. I've run into a recent theory that the Scottish Gaels aren't as connected to the Irish Gaels as we previously believed. This too doesn't sit right with me. Families know who they are. The Frasiers know they're Norman and the MacDonalds and MacNeils know they're Irish.

Something doesn't make sense to me about the fact that MacAlpine had Gaelic name, a Gaelic relative who sheltered his sons who then established a Gaelic kingdom but was a Pict all along.

I'm not saying I have the proof to refute the claim, but I have my doubts and now also have a new research project.

N

[Steve Ashton]

This thread has now veered way off the original topic.

It has also generated 3 separate flags for possible violations of Rule 5.

While the Forum Moderators have the time necessary to notify everyone and to deliberate on these flags I am temporarily moving this thread to The Cooling Off Corner.

[Steve Ashton]

The issues with post to this thread have been resolved.

Thread returned to General Kilt Talk.

[kilttrip]

Since it is pretty well agreed that most use of the kilt is occasion wear (even though there are a few dashing rogues who would dare to be different and wear it out in the general population!) I wonder if the kilt shops are mainly for tourists? Or maybe some find that they wear one for more occasions than they find feasible to continue to hire one for said occasion.

[Pipersson]

Here are - I repeat it - two very illuminative and - as I find - exhilarant passages from C.R. MacKinnon of Dunakin's book "Tartans and Highland Dress" which I very much appreciate:

On page 35
"As long as Scotland sells clan tartans to every conceivable nationality of foreigner who is prepared to pay for them, and exports them all over the world, no one can complain if these 'outsiders' wear what we persuade them to buy."

And on page 38
"We have given tartan to the world and the world has responded generously by wearing it. Let us be content with that and stop trying to 'whip up trade' by playing the genealogical ignorance of our welcome overseas visitors and trying to sell them unsalesable rights which they do not need in the first place."

Of course he speaks about tartans especially clan tartans but I guess it is meant in form of a kilt and not a purse, scarf or underwear...

Reading this I became calm.

Tom

[Lodrorigdzin]

There's a "men in kilts" group on facebook: almost anything that's posted there: to do with weddings, the full rental kit, including white hose etc.

I think that when men buy "an outfit", it's the rental kit, but in ownership, and the kilt will be retained for wearing to football matches, or for kilt runs, or for any gathering where wearing a kilt is thought to add to scottish nationalism.

Like in the Netherlands, most souvenir shops in touristy places will sell quite a size range of perfectly usable and traditional wooden clogs. No Dutchman will ever wear them. I was up north last week, and saw two guys in clogs: one who was part of a "living history" exhibit, and one guy who was cycling back from his allotment garden and still had his clogs on.

[Pipersson]

Clogs are much less comfortable then kilts are...
I owned a pair as child...almost broke my leg

[Lodrorigdzin]

Clogs are much less comfortable then kilts are...
I owned a pair as child...almost broke my leg

Depends on the maker. I own a pair from Eenrum, one of the few quality clog makers left in the Netherlands, and they're of the "trippen" type. Very comfortable because they're bespoke.

http://www.eenrumerklompen.nl/index.html

[Jock Scot]

Here are - I repeat it - two very illuminative and - as I find - exhilarant passages from C.R. MacKinnon of Dunakin's book "Tartans and Highland Dress" which I very much appreciate:

On page 35
"As long as Scotland sells clan tartans to every conceivable nationality of foreigner who is prepared to pay for them, and exports them all over the world, no one can complain if these 'outsiders' wear what we persuade them to buy."

And on page 38
"We have given tartan to the world and the world has responded generously by wearing it. Let us be content with that and stop trying to 'whip up trade' by playing the genealogical ignorance of our welcome overseas visitors and trying to sell them unsalesable rights which they do not need in the first place."

Of course he speaks about tartans especially clan tartans but I guess it is meant in form of a kilt and not a purse, scarf or underwear...

Reading this I became calm.

Tom

That's all very interesting Tom, but how many Scots do you think have read those words and how many Scots that have read it will agree with it? I have no idea, but just don't rely on what you read in a book for guidance. However, I would pay particular note to page 38 and I would guess that they are talking about ALL Clan tartans in whatever goods form they come. I honestly do detect a "tartan overload" in a tourist context, developing in Scotland.