I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[davidlpope]

Bill, can you point me towards the "MUG/ Utilikilt forum". I don't know where that is.

Don't these fit in the Contemporary category?

[pbutts]

I've almost jumped in a couple of times and so in holding back most of what I wanted to say has been said already. First of all it says something about the high level of discourse that this has come up at all.

Second, the evolution from defining section by "make" to "usage" makes a lot of sense....as long as the terminology can be agreed upon (I really like the term "postmodern" as a neutral term for "other" kinds of kilts).

Third, I was also going to mention that how individual members use the site may be a big factor in how they approach this issue. As others have said, I use the "New Posts" link to browse the whole site, so I pay little attention to which forum a discussion comes from. The forum structure is most useful when looking for vendor information or starting a new thread.

Finally, if there are occasional lapses in respect among members, the forum structure itself isn't necessarily going to help. Communication isn't always perfect online, is it? Both misunderstanding and rude behavior can be pretty routine. This kind of discussion can help remind users of the diverse perspectives of the membership, though. CMcG 's photos are great, too. Maybe each of the new forums needs a sticky where examples can be posted to help new members get the hang of the styles as the forum defines them.

[Nathan]

Steve, I think that is an excellent sentiment.

Here are my suggestions for style sub-fora. I have drawn on Nathan's "approaches" approach, but did a bit of tweaking.

Historical and Costume Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Fashion Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt that follow the latest trends in retail, rental/hire, and runway style.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Postmodern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as everyday clothing and/or street wear that privileges personal interpretation.


The General and Accessories sub-fora will remain a free-for-all because they are open. I guess we're missing a section on uniforms, but that is more a question of regulations than options... I suppose solo pipers who have the freedom to choose could post in the Celtic Music section?

And for visual examples, here are pics of the inimitable Panache because he is one of the few people—if not the only person—who has posted photos of himself in all four categories.


Historical and Costume Kilt Wear:




Fashion Kilt Wear:





Traditional Kilt Wear:





Postmodern Kilt Wear:

I'd love to steer the conversation back here. This is great! CMcG got 8 Ayes plus a couple more complimentary posts for this work. What do you think of this idea, Steve?

[hector]

[QUOTE=Grizzly;1252265]This is what I do too Liam. As for posting I am sometimes in a quandary as to where to post!

I am number three in favour! Is it so important to discuss what gender the angels may have? (sorry if this latter expression is unfamiliar in the english language. In French they say:discuter le sexe des anges, which means, a lot of efforts in debating something which is not very important and which will not lead to a consensus.)What really matters is that all members feel equally welcome on this forum and that there is not a latent seggregation between one group and another.

[Nathan]

[QUOTE=hector;1252288]

This is what I do too Liam. As for posting I am sometimes in a quandary as to where to post!

I am number three in favour! Is it so important to discuss what gender the angels may have? (sorry if this latter expression is unfamiliar in the english language. In French they say:discuter le sexe des anges, which means, a lot of efforts in debating something which is not very important and which will not lead to a consensus.)What really matters is that all members feel equally welcome on this forum and that there is not a latent seggregation between one group and another.

Interesting thoughts, hector, but from where I'm standing, categorization is no more segregation than Math class is segregation from Geography class. All members have equal access and the ability to participate in threads in any category that pleases them. Jamie's photos in Colin's proposed solution demonstrate that you don't need to spend all your time in one category. I've been saying for a long time that context is key.

Why should MUG/utility style/pinstripe/tinfoil/denim/whatever kilt enthusiasts have to listen to the finer points of flash length in the name of forum unity? Why should those who want to discuss this minutia be hampered from doing so?

And if subject matter is akin to segregation, why have subforums at all?

When I joined xmarks, I wanted to check the information I had gleaned from my family, Highland Games and military experience against the experience and mores of traditional Highlanders in the Highlands. I started threads about day tweed jackets after dark and the ideal time for the Black Argyll. I asked for guidance about whether my doublet was too much for some black tie events.

The thoughtful responses I got to these questions are the "advice and guidance" spoken about in the mission statement. The fact that I wanted to ask them is why I stopped lurking and started posting.

Am I one dimensional or elitist? I don't think so. I fronted a Celtic Rock band for years and did not wear my tartan kilt particularly traditionally. I wore a t-shirt and big black boots on stage several nights a week for four years and I, in my humble opinion, looked great doing it. That look was way more rock and roll than a tweed jacket and tie.

The thing is, I don't need advice or guidance on how to ignore tradition - I need advice and guidance on how to follow tradition and sometimes, that's exactly what I want to do.

The proposed "Highland Event" section seemingly seeks to make educating someone when asked about how their look diverges from the received tradition verboten or it makes it more difficult for gents like AlanH to ignore threads about cromachs, tweed patterns or bonnet shades.

What should I say in this section if someone asks. "What kind of attire is appropriate for a Burns Dinner?" or "I'm a MacWhatsit, but my mother is a McWhosethatnow, should I wear a MacWhatsit tie with a McWhosethatnow kilt?"

Would every question be met with the bland an meaningless, "Wear whatever makes you feel good. Welcome to xmarks!"?

Because that's not advice or guidance and it is a waste of the valuable brain trust assembled here.

[Grizzly]

Part of the problem as I see it Nathan, is that the wearing of the kilt in Scotland is not commonplace. Not even in the highlands. With a few notable exceptions most Scots who wear a kilt only have kilt hire shops or the Tartan Army as role models. True THCD has become diluted to such an extent that with the few exceptions, yourself, Kyle, Jock, Rex etc really know how it should be done, either based on years of experience or extensive research.

How many times have we heard posters remark on the lack of kilts being worn in Scotland when they have been visiting. Yes we can follow what was traditionally worn although traditions evolve and is replaced by facsimiles of bygone wear, this is now contemporary wear but in a bygone traditional style. Is this wrong? No it isn't. Is wearing a polo shirt, scrunched down hose wrong? No it isn't. I would suggest that in 10 or 20 years time this will be seen as traditional.

In my view traditional can also meant contemporary if it represents what we perceive to be traditional but it can also represent an accepted form of Kilt attire that is broadly worn today.

I know this doesn't help the argument but I think we are trying to pigeon hole things too much. Do I dress traditionally yes I hope so, do I dress contemporarily yes I hope so too. For the simple reason that my garments are made now, may be in an accepted older style or in a fashion that can be accepted by my peers without them thinking I am wearing a costume.

[Kilted Karl]

Dear All,

Not to open up a can of worms but... I would oppose merging the Historical forum with a "Costume" forum. The historical forum as it is now is a great place for folks like me (reenactors) to get information as to how kilts were worn in times past.

Kilts worn as a costume (for Halloween etc. as has been mentioned) are sometimes inspired by history but are often "inspired by" only and bear little resemblance to actual historical clothing, for instance the "Braveheart" costume mentioned above.

If I post a question on the historical forum I would like actual historical answers, not how people may be wearing things in the "Outlander" series or "Braveheart".

There is a place for such things of course, Perhaps there could a separate forum for those who who would like to wear the kilt as a "costume"

Sincerely,

:ootd: Karl

[Liam]

Nathan... I use the search feature to query specific things.

[CMcG]

...
Not to open up a can of worms but... I would oppose merging the Historical forum with a "Costume" forum. The historical forum as it is now is a great place for folks like me (reenactors) to get information as to how kilts were worn in times past.

...

That's a fair point. I guess it depends on how many sub-fora the owner wants to create and whether or not there would be enough traffic to justify every smaller slices of the kilt wear pie.

From another perspective, however, re-enactment is a costume. It just happens to be a historically accurate one

*edited to add: I suppose while we're separating costumes and re-enactment, we could also split the proposed Postmodern Kilt Wear forum into one for utility kilts and the other for traditional looking kilts worn in non-traditional ways. And then create a sub-forum for military uniforms and another for pipers. That would probably be a bit unwieldy though, no?

[macwilkin]

That's a fair point. I guess it depends on how many sub-fora the owner wants to create and whether or not there would be enough traffic to justify every smaller slices of the kilt wear pie.

From another perspective, however, re-enactment is a costume. It just happens to be a historically accurate one

*edited to add: I suppose while we're separating costumes and re-enactment, we could also split the proposed Postmodern Kilt Wear forum into one for utility kilts and the other for traditional looking kilts worn in non-traditional ways. And then create a sub-forum for military uniforms and another for pipers. That would probably be a bit unwieldy though, no?

Respectfully, Colin...reenactment clothing is simply that...clothing. In the case of military reenacting, it is part of a uniform. *Living historians and reenactors refer to their kit and clothing as an "impression", and many take great care that their clothing, whether civilian and military attire, is an accurate representation of the period they are portraying. The word "costume" is a somewhat pejorative one in the reenacting/living history world.

Just my twa bob after twenty years of reenacting and living history interpretation.

T.

*I generally avoid blanket generalizations, and this case is no exception; there are all sorts of reenactors, from those who do all sorts of research to make sure their impression is as historically accurate as possible, and those who simply treat "the hobby" as just that...no different from bass fishing or another activity.