I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[kiltedrennie]

I'm not sure exactly how to say this and I hope I can be clear...

As a woman here I spend most of my time reading and saying small complementary things about others looks and new acquisitions. Women who post about wearing kilts often get a mix of "Women don't wear kilts only men do and I like women in anything". I really appreciate it when the comments to the ladies are honest and for the most part not related to the the gender of the poster.

The few ladies/lasses wear threads are old and closed, they honestly had degraded to sexist remarks and one has to wade through a lot of deep stuff to glean any real information. Mind you I am not at all easily offended!

Given the ratio of men to women here none of this is surprising and I doubt there is enough female traffic to warrant a separate forum for woman kilt wearer of all kinds... but sometimes I wish for one.

I think this would be an excellent addition. My wife has mentioned interest a couple of times. She has a kilt (top panel open toward the left) and a pleated tartan skirt.

[CMcG]

OK, if we add uniforms and ladies' wear we get this:

Historical Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Modern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing kilts as everyday clothing and/or street wear that privilege personal interpretation.

Fashion Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt that follow the neo-traditional trends of retail and rental/hire.

Uniform Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as part of required and regulated attire, as in Highland regiments and pipebands.

Ladies’ Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt by women and their attendant specificities.

[ASinclair]

OK, if we add uniforms and ladies' wear we get this:

Historical Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Modern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing kilts as everyday clothing and/or street wear that privileges personal interpretation.

Fashion Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt that follow the neo-traditional trends of retail and rental/hire.

Uniform Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as part of required and regulated attire, as in Highland regiments and pipebands.

Ladies’ Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt by women and its attendant specificities.

I vote for this. What say the rest of the Rabble?

[CDNSushi]

I vote for this. What say the rest of the Rabble?

I think it's darned close (IF there were to be a change) and would be happy with such a scheme. Although I fail to see sufficient distinction between modern and fashion to warrant separate sections...

[ThistleDown]

I think it's darned close (IF there were to be a change) and would be happy with such a scheme. Although I fail to see sufficient distinction between modern and fashion to warrant separate sections...

Nor do I, JD. Most 'modern' trends began with merchant marketing variations on a theme (UK, 21C and Freedom are prime examples). Bleach-able white hose and can't-be-worn-with-anything-else gillie brogues are two others. Perhaps they are fashions that have become trends without yet achieving traditional status?

[Steve Ashton]

I would like to apologize to everyone. I began this thread as a way of starting a line of communication but I don't think I ever fully explained what it was I was trying to accomplish.

So let me start my apology with this.

As you know, I'm an Engineer. I deal best with facts and numbers. I don't do well with words that are not clearly defined.
I had the same problem with the term that used to be thrown around a lot on X Marks, "Family Friendly". That phrase was never fully defined. No one could tell me the difference between what was, and what was not, family friendly.

And I sort of lost it when a member, who had the power to hold another person responsible to family friendly, used the old thing "It can't be defined, but I know it when I see it". Well, I'm sorry, that just was not good enough.

I just can't be comfortable when something is left up to one persons personal interpretation. Especially when others are held accountable for not living up to that personal interpretation.

So I have a knee jerk reaction to any word or phrase that does not have a clear definition.

And yes, I had a strong knee jerk reaction to how the word 'traditional' and the acronym TCHD were being used here.
It seemed that we could not come to a consensus on what it meant. Too much was left to personal interpretation.
And others were being held to a standard or being told they were or were not traditional when the standard was personal interpretation.

In the old thread, where we tried to define traditional and TCHD, we failed miserably. In the most recent thread on the same subject one of our members, OCRichard, said this;

"I don't think it's possible to define.
Or the definitions become circular, like "Art is what Artists make" (and what is an Artist? A person who makes Art?)
Using that approach the definition of Traditional Highland Dress would be "that dress which people in The Highlands regard as Traditional."
In other words it would be the sum of the attitudes or tastes of a specific population, and not knowable or definable to a person outwith that population.
Outsiders can only look at the manifestations. These manifestations can be both the physical reality of what Highlanders themselves wear, and verbal manifestations such as written or spoken commentary."

Then, After 8 days, 15 pages and 127 posts it was agreed that a couple of members would go off and try to work up something better than;

"Outsiders can create guidelines and rules generated from study of these manifestations but can never have the insider's views/opinions/attitudes/tastes.
The complexity of this situation can prove daunting for newbies, which seasoned Xmarkers mitigate by providing simplified guidelines that could be mistaken for regulations. Once someone is more experienced, however, they tend to realize the areas of core sartorial consensus and discover the ample room for personal flair.”

This was almost too much. We were right back to "I'll know it when I see it".


I honestly did not began this thread to start new forum subsections. I certainly did not start this thread with the intent of taking something away from our members.
I honestly wanted to find a common ground, some consensus that we could all use and that would be the same, and have the same meaning to those who saw it here on the screen.

So I went back through a lot of threads. Trying to find an answer.

Then I came upon a post by Jock Scot who said, “As a suggestion, how about putting up a picture and disecting it, so to speak?” And something clicked.

If you can take something apart, and define those parts, you may have found an overall definition of the thing itself.
What if we could find a word for those parts that had a good and positive meaning to our members? What if it was a word that could be easily defined?

And you know what? I think I found one.

This word can not only be used to describe the components of the over-all thing it can also be used for the over-all thing itself.
And this word is really good. I think even our hard core 'traditionalists' will like it.

So I would like to make a proposal to everyone.

I will agree to, and fully support using this word if you, the members, can agree that it is a good thing, that it says what you feel, and can agree with me that it is both definable and positive.

OK, here goes ----

The word is Iconic.

Merriam Websters dictionary defines Iconic as - "widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence"
As an example they use "A region's iconic wines".
The word Iconic is recognized as something classic, something timeless.

And the great thing about Iconic is that we can define those individual components, those icons, that make up the whole.

Here is how I think this word could be used as a replacement for 'traditional'.

We could use this as a stand alone term or phrase as in "Iconic Highland Attire". And if you wish, I offer the acronym IHA.
And we can easily identify and define the individual components. These are The Icons of Highland Attire. Of if you wish IoHA.
The same root word works for both.


We could use this word to describe the overall look like this - "He dresses to emulate Iconic Highland Attire (IHA).
By defining the look with it's individual elements such as "A striped School Tie is one of the Icons of Highland Attire (IoHA)".



I know that many of you had a knee jerk reaction to my use of the word 'vintage' in my post #62. I don't blame you. I didn't like it much myself.
But if we were to change that part of my post -

You are wearing a kilt as part of a vintage outfit
Would become
You are wearing a kilt as part of Iconic Highland Attire

We could then take my original 8 genre and modify them with those ideas suggested in this thread and come up with something like -

Kilts as part of a uniform –
Kilts as part of a costume –
Kilts worn as part of a ladies outfit -
Kilts worn for sporting and other outdoor specific endeavors. –
Kilts worn as part of Iconic Highland Attire -
Kilts worn for for special occasions –
Kilts worn as modern day or street wear –
Kilts worn as a non-conformist outfit -


This still give our current traditionalist an area all to themselves.
It also covers just about all the different ways and reasons we wear the kilt. A newbie would know quite easily where to post.
It also eliminates the need to use yet another, hard to define term, that is the opposite of Iconic.

The more I think about this word Iconic, the more I am convinced that it says what I think many of you are trying to say.
And I would be very comfortable with Iconic because it is definable simply by showing examples of its components.

What does the membership say about my idea?

[Jock Scot]

I am not at all sure that "Iconic" will do it Steve. Why? Because traditional attire----THCD----covers many and various circumstances, on occasion, within the headings that you suggest.

Kilts worn for sporting and other outdoor specific endeavours.
Kilts worn for special occasions.
Kilts worn as modern day or street wear.

and even at a stretch.

Kilts worn as a non-conformist outfit.

Why have five headings(the four I have identified plus the "iconic"heading) when THCD covers all of those five headings you suggest?

Please don't get me wrong Steve, I do understand that you are trying to get a handle on all this and I will support and help as best I can, but what we come up with, really ought to be better than what we have already. Can I suggest taking "time out" for a couple of days to see what Colin and Nathan come up with? I have no idea what that may be, but I do know that they both have been working pretty hard on the THCD subject and we may all be jumping the gun a tad?

[Father Bill]

Steve,

Unlike my friend Jock, I rather like and sense the meaning of "iconic," but that's the problem. It's a word whose meaning we judge and you and I come from very different perspectives.

As an engineer you have learned to measure, quantify, define, and categorize... pretty well everything. I come from a very different perspective. Thirty-two years as a teacher taught me that despite the wishes of certain right-wing think tanks, it's childish and impossible to measure the value of a child's idea. A good idea? The phrase you hate is part of that since teaching is an art, not a science: "I know it when I see it."

I believe that the preparation, selection, and application of clothing in our wardrobe is also an art, not a science. What makes me look good in the morning? "I know it when I see it." So does my beautiful wife who critiques me from time to time. To tread on very thin ice, what makes her beautiful? "I know it because I feel it!"

I am quite content with the proposed categories that are emerging. I'm also quite content with the categories that have been used since before I joined X-Marks. The problem is that there are some things that cannot, and probably should not be defined. How does one define love? ...happiness? ...beauty? "I know it when I see/feel it," and that's okay with me.

To measure the value of a child's learning? A poorly defined mug's game. (Not MUG.) To take a chance on this neutral website, but in my current calling, how does one define God? Not only impossible but possibly dangerous, and not a discussion we should ever undertake here!

Today marks 100 years to the day that Lt. Harry Colebourn, a Canadian veterinarian and soldier with the Royal Canadian Army Veterinary Corps, came across an orphaned bear cub which he purchased and took with him when he went overseas. That bear which he named "Winnipeg" for his home town became the mascot of Colebourn's unit, and when they shipped overseas, he donated the bear, now named "Winnie" to the London zoo where she (yes she was female) inspired A.A. Milne to write the "iconic" Winnie the Pooh stories.

I end my gentle rant with a quote from Milne's books: Piglet: “How do you spell 'love'?" Pooh: "You don't spell it...you feel it."

Some things like love are okay if they aren't measured, defined, or quantified. I just want lots of it.

Bill+

[S Mitchell]

I like the idea of using the word Iconic. People get word allergies and the word 'traditional' seems to be a big trigger on this forum.

Maybe it's because when a mode of dress is called traditional, it carries with it an entire history and culture. That's not a bad thing, but discussing cultural identity can be delicate at best.

Iconic is arguably close in meaning to traditional, but it feels, somehow, less rigid and exclusive.

[macwilkin]

Steve,

Unlike my friend Jock, I rather like and sense the meaning of "iconic," but that's the problem. It's a word whose meaning we judge and you and I come from very different perspectives.

As an engineer you have learned to measure, quantify, define, and categorize... pretty well everything. I come from a very different perspective. Thirty-two years as a teacher taught me that despite the wishes of certain right-wing think tanks, it's childish and impossible to measure the value of a child's idea. A good idea? The phrase you hate is part of that since teaching is an art, not a science: "I know it when I see it."

I believe that the preparation, selection, and application of clothing in our wardrobe is also an art, not a science. What makes me look good in the morning? "I know it when I see it." So does my beautiful wife who critiques me from time to time. To tread on very thin ice, what makes her beautiful? "I know it because I feel it!"

I am quite content with the proposed categories that are emerging. I'm also quite content with the categories that have been used since before I joined X-Marks.

The problem is that there are some things that cannot, and probably should not be defined. How does one define love? ...happiness? ...beauty? "I know it when I see/feel it," and that's okay with me.

To measure the value of a child's learnin? A poorly defined mug's game. (Not MUG.) To take a chance on this neutral website, but in my current calling, to define God? Not only impossible but possibly dangerous.

Today marks 100 years to the day that Lt. Harry Colebourn, a Canadian veterinarian and soldier with the Royal Canadian Army Veterinary Corps, came across an orphaned bear cub which he purchased and took with him when he went overseas. That bear which he named "Winnipeg" for his home town became the mascot of Colebourn's unit, and when they shipped overseas, he donated the bear, now named "Winnie" to the London zoo where he inspired A.A. Milne to write the "iconic" Winnie the Pooh stories. I end my rant with a quote from Milne's books: Piglet: “How do you spell 'love'?" Pooh: "You don't spell it...you feel it."

Some things are okay if they aren't measured, defined, or quantified. I just want lots of it.

Bill+

Spot on, Padre. I would only add a quote from one of my favourite writers, Gibert Keith Chesterton, which I use as my signature line:

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about.”

It's not just the living that defines tradition, it is those who have went before us as well. We feel their presence.
T.