I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[ratspike]

Can I suggest taking "time out" for a couple of days to see what Colin and Nathan come up with? I have no idea what that may be, but I do know that they both have been working pretty hard on the THCD subject and we may all be jumping the gun a tad?

This. I do like the direction this is going and think it's a good idea, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to give it a short rest. So far I think they've had solid ideas for how to redefine those sections of the forum. If it's decided that those sections will indeed be changed, I think the less-is-more approach they've taken so far is the way to go.

[CMcG]

I think it's darned close (IF there were to be a change) and would be happy with such a scheme. Although I fail to see sufficient distinction between modern and fashion to warrant separate sections...

Nor do I, JD. Most 'modern' trends began with merchant marketing variations on a theme (UK, 21C and Freedom are prime examples). Bleach-able white hose and can't-be-worn-with-anything-else gillie brogues are two others. Perhaps they are fashions that have become trends without yet achieving traditional status?

I freely admit that this is an exercise in splitting hairs, but the distinction between those two sections lies in their approach and the way that it is manifested in a visually perceptible style. There is bound to be gray area and overlap.

The Fashion category includes the latest neo-traditional looks, which are related to the received tradition of THCD, and yet remain distinct because they are trending but have not yet stood the test of time. Modern is the consciously not-traditional approach to wearing the kilt as normal clothing. While it includes both tartan and utility styles, it involves a more or less clear break with tradition.

The fly in the ointment is that neo-traditional fashions don't tend to fly with either the traditionalists or the modernists. I suppose one could lump them together somehow, but the approaches and their results are quite different... to be honest, I don't know if we even need a Fashion category, except that Steve wants the site to be more inclusive...

Let me use some images from Xmarks sponsors to illustrate.

Scotweb and neo-traditional fashion, including white hose, tartan flashes, and wing collar for formalwear; pseudo-Jacobite shirt and "swordsman" vest with white hose for casual; and matchy-matchy day wear tweed. Close to THCD, but with a different approach and rather antithetical to the modernist ideal.




Freedom Kilts and modern kilted style, including camo cargo kilt with tshirt and boots; solid navy casual kilt in a monochrome-ish look with matching shirt and hose ; and tartan kilt with matching rugby jersey, knee-high socks, and nylon cargo sporran.

[CMcG]

I would like to apologize to everyone. I began this thread as a way of starting a line of communication but I don't think I ever fully explained what it was I was trying to accomplish.

So let me start my apology with this.

As you know, I'm an Engineer. I deal best with facts and numbers. I don't do well with words that are not clearly defined.

<snip>

Then, After 8 days, 15 pages and 127 posts it was agreed that a couple of members would go off and try to work up something better than;

"Outsiders can create guidelines and rules generated from study of these manifestations but can never have the insider's views/opinions/attitudes/tastes.
The complexity of this situation can prove daunting for newbies, which seasoned Xmarkers mitigate by providing simplified guidelines that could be mistaken for regulations. Once someone is more experienced, however, they tend to realize the areas of core sartorial consensus and discover the ample room for personal flair.”

This was almost too much. We were right back to "I'll know it when I see it".

<snip>

If you can take something apart, and define those parts, you may have found an overall definition of the thing itself.
What if we could find a word for those parts that had a good and positive meaning to our members? What if it was a word that could be easily defined?

We know you have a problem with THCD, Steve, and we have been working very hard to give you a clearer definition. It is a broad-based cultural practice with hundreds of years of history, however, and not a mathematical calculation. In other words, this is a humanities or social science subject (anthropology/sociology), not a hard, positivist science.

That being said, I already crafted a definition that was generally approved in the thread you mentioned. Nathan and I are working on a practical guide including a list of parts that make up the whole and how they are traditionally combined. That guide will be added to the theoretical definition along with a photo essay, all of which will be posted in the Member Written Articles section. We hope to have it done on Monday evening.

I have one small point of clarification about the quote you used above. The second half are my words (green added) and not only are they taken out of context of the rest of my definition, but also the first half was tacked on (red added). Through the use of closed quotation marks, the first sentence was made to look as though it was part of what I said, which it wasn't. Please don't put words in my mouth In my humble opinion, the insider/outside dichotomy can be bridged by those who are willing to put in the work...

...

Here is how I think this word could be used as a replacement for 'traditional'.

We could use this as a stand alone term or phrase as in "Iconic Highland Attire". And if you wish, I offer the acronym IHA.
And we can easily identify and define the individual components. These are The Icons of Highland Attire. Of if you wish IoHA.
The same root word works for both.


<snip>


We could then take my original 8 genre and modify them with those ideas suggested in this thread and come up with something like -

Kilts as part of a uniform –
Kilts as part of a costume –
Kilts worn as part of a ladies outfit -
Kilts worn for sporting and other outdoor specific endeavors. –
Kilts worn as part of Iconic Highland Attire -
Kilts worn for for special occasions –
Kilts worn as modern day or street wear –
Kilts worn as a non-conformist outfit -


This still give our current traditionalist an area all to themselves.
It also covers just about all the different ways and reasons we wear the kilt. A newbie would know quite easily where to post.

<snip>
What does the membership say about my idea?

Iconic is a good descriptor, but it isn't a replacement for THCD. To give just one example, a piper in full regalia is also iconic, but not germane to civilian attire. Furthermore, IHA fits into many of the other activity-based categories you are proposing. I'd prefer if you switched the IHA section for THCD. If not, I suppose THCD discussion can just happen in the IHA section, if that is the area reserved for traditionalists

I guess you're not feeling the "approaches" categories I proposed (latest edit is post #92), which is fine. It is your site, after all. FYI, some people would want a ninth grouping for kilts as part of historical attire. Apparently re-enactors don't refer to their practice as costume Nine categories is getting to be quite a bit much though...

[theborderer]

I find the discussion very interesting, BUT, I balk at the use of the Term "Costume". Reenactors try very hard to wear copies of original Uniforms. To me a costume is something Ladies wear Jacket and Skirt.

[JonathanB]

Why not let everything go in the "General Kilt Talk" board with a special board for re-enactors? Like a few others, I just notice new threads. If I was to start a new tread myself, "General Kilt Talk" is where I'd start.

[CDNSushi]

The Fashion category includes the latest neo-traditional looks, which are related to the received tradition of THCD, and yet remain distinct because they are trending but have not yet stood the test of time. Modern is the consciously not-traditional approach to wearing the kilt as normal clothing. While it includes both tartan and utility styles, it involves a more or less clear break with tradition.

The fly in the ointment is that neo-traditional fashions don't tend to fly with either the traditionalists or the modernists. I suppose one could lump them together somehow, but the approaches and their results are quite different... to be honest, I don't know if we even need a Fashion category, except that Steve wants the site to be more inclusive...

Includes... But is not restricted to. Your definition of "modern" is quite specific and narrow. And arbitrary. (Which by the way, is not intended as a criticism, as you are well entitled to so define things as you please)... But whereas to me, neo-traditional can just as easily cover utility and cargo kilts because they are just as well "neo-" in that they are inspired by ye kiltes of olde.

But more saliently, my point in the earlier post wasn't so much to argue semantics or to pore over the definitions of what might or might not be considered "modern" or "neo-traditional." I'm afraid I should have stated my intentions far more explicitly. My point was (and still is) that the more categories you have, the less traffic in each, to the point of having wastelands where the last thread started may be months or even years old. I've been to MANY fora where this has been the case, and I would hate to see XMarks take that same tack.

Redefine if you wish. I dinna care. Whatever you want to call what I enjoy wearing will not change the fact that I enjoy wearing it. Even now, when I hear people call my kilt a "skirt" or "dress" or anything else, I am far more likely to smile and say "thank you" rather than correct them on the minutiae. Redefine the terms to whatever the rabble thinks fits best -- my only concern is when we start expanding and adding categories. That I think might be the beginning of the end.

[CMcG]

...
But more saliently, my point in the earlier post wasn't so much to argue semantics or to pore over the definitions of what might or might not be considered "modern" or "neo-traditional." I'm afraid I should have stated my intentions far more explicitly. My point was (and still is) that the more categories you have, the less traffic in each, to the point of having wastelands where the last thread started may be months or even years old. I've been to MANY fora where this has been the case, and I would hate to see XMarks take that same tack.
...

That's an excellent point regarding the optimal amount of style sub-sections this forum could support. For me, the core three are what they've been since I joined: Historical, Traditional, and Modern. Regardless of how those sections were defined (time periods), are defined (construction), or will be defined (???), I suspect the interests of members in those main areas will continue to drive most of the traffic in the Kilt Styles sub-sections. We still have many other parts of the forum that can pick up the overflow i.e., General Kilt Talk, Kilt Advice, How to Accessorize Your Kilt, Show Us Your Pics, etc.

I'm going to take one more crack at this, though it may be moot by now...

Historical Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic. Everything from great kilts to uniforms goes here.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation. Everything from kilted casual to formal in a kilt that has stood the test of time goes here.

Modern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing kilts as everyday clothing, street wear, or fashion that privilege personal interpretation. Everything from utility kilts to tartan kilts worn in new ways goes here.

[CDNSushi]

I'm going to take one more crack at this, though it may be moot by now...

Historical Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic. Everything from great kilts to uniforms goes here.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation. Everything from kilted casual to formal in a kilt that has stood the test of time goes here.

Modern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing kilts as everyday clothing, street wear, or fashion that privilege personal interpretation. Everything from utility kilts to tartan kilts worn in new ways goes here.

Moot, perhaps. Or not -- up to Steve, ultimately. But of all the attempts thus far, I like this one the most because it retains the existing structure and doesn't create many, small, unnecessary divisions, but at the same time uses good, descriptive terms to help guide the themes and contents for each section.

[California Highlander]

Current names/descriptions

Historically Made Kilts and How To Wear Them This forum sub-section is for those interested in learning about and discussing Historically made kilts and to discuss and see examples of how kilts can be worn to emulate a historical style or fashion.


Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them This forum sub-section is for those interested in learning about and discussing Traditionally made kilts and to discuss and see examples of how kilts can be worn to emulate a traditional style or fashion


Contemporarily Made Kilts and How to Wear Them This forum sub-section is for those interested in learning about and discussing Contemporarily made kilts and to discuss and see examples of how kilts can be worn to emulate a contemporary style or fashion.

And the latest proposal:

I'm going to take one more crack at this, though it may be moot by now...

Historical Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic. Everything from great kilts to uniforms goes here.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation. Everything from kilted casual to formal in a kilt that has stood the test of time goes here.

Modern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing kilts as everyday clothing, street wear, or fashion that privilege personal interpretation. Everything from utility kilts to tartan kilts worn in new ways goes here.

I agree more with the new category names, now that its fewer categories. More of an adjustment of what we have instead of a total reworking.

[davidlpope]

Historical Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic. Everything from great kilts to uniforms goes here.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation. Everything from kilted casual to formal in a kilt that has stood the test of time goes here.

Modern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing kilts as everyday clothing, street wear, or fashion that privilege personal interpretation. Everything from utility kilts to tartan kilts worn in new ways goes here.

I like having three categories. I'd suggest this tweak:

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt which emulate the way the kilt has been traditionally worn in the Highlands of Scotland. Everything from casual to formal in a kilt, if worn in a traditional way, goes here.

Steve's engineering background shapes the way he views the world. My legal training does as well. I am used to, and comfortable with, definitions which are never quite clear and which undergo frequent revision. How do we define freedom of speech? The right to privacy? What constitutes pornography?(from which discussion comes the famous quote by Justice Potter Stewart about "knowing it when he sees it...")

I really think it's best to have a subforum where members who self-identify as traditionalists hash out the finer points of what tradition is. I think our previous thread defining THCD demonstrates that we're perfectly capable of having polite and thoughtful discourse on a subject that interests us without causing a ruckus for everyone else.