The ideal time for the black argyll

[Nathan]

When I started this thread, I was asking for input on the ideal time for the black Argyll from a traditional perspective. That's why I posted it in Traditionally Made Kilts and how to Wear Them. This discussion, along with several other threads I started, has been moved from [U][U]Traditionally Made Kilts and How to Wear Them sub-forum to How to Accessorize Your Kilt. As the OP, I just want to clarify that I was asking for a traditional approach to this question which I think the thread has attracted. I suppose if you have no regard for the traditional view of an item, the ideal time to wear a black Argyll might be whenever it suits your fancy. I hope this post keeps it clear that I was seeking and have received traditional feedback on the question, regardless of where it now must reside.

If a discussion like this isn't fit for the Traditional Sub-Forum, what is?

[Glen]

First and foremost the BBSBA is FORMAL ---repeat FORMAL----

and wondering about thoughts on other colours...



I'm the vertically challenged one, without an accent.



and in another colour, turning out to watch a parade.

Tweed has been hard to obtain here, while maintaining an appendage; however, have one added to the wardrobe lately, as well as a black Argyll, somewhere, but now I may be facing wardrobe choice freeze thus would be interested guidance, although that may not be taken...

[Calgacus]

I'd say both of those jackets are daywear, regardless of the cloth they might be made of. In order to be suitable for formal wear, I'd say they should be black, and have silver buttons.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

[CMcG]

Well, I think Jock is more than just correct on this. In my own lifetime, I remember when his description of "formal" and "business" was the one used in North America. As folks here have forgotten how to dress nicely (bl**dy baseball caps worn in restaurant dining rooms etc.) all of a sudden a business or lounge suit has been promoted up the vocabulary to "formal."

Bollocks! Add one more Auld Crabbit to the list. I hate seeing folks in restaurants dressed as if they're in the midst of cleaning out their garages or gardening. It's disrespectful to everyone else in the room and disgusting.

Father Bill, you are obviously passionate about this and certainly entitled to your opinion, but I've bolded a few of your word choices that seem a bit... too strong for a civil discussion. I agree that North American ideas of formality have generally shifted towards the casual, but there are still dining rooms where people dress up. Some of them even have dress codes! Other restaurants cultivate a more informal atmosphere and clientele. In a pluralist society, there is room for both approaches. You are entitled not to like it and it may even disgust you, but I caution you against absolute value judgements like labelling casual dining categorically "disgusting."

Back to the dress Argyll.

Alright, I think I detect a trans-Atlantic misunderstanding here.
<snip>

Jock's observation about socio-cultural-linguistic disconnect is altogether likely There are also some other relevant issues...

To be clear, I don't think anyone is arguing for anything other than a white (or very pale solid colour), button up shirt with a long tie or a white, stud/covered button, formal shirt for black tie as the conventional, traditional, and correct choice for a dress Argyll. Leaving aside "fashion-forward," patterned shirts, I'd like to address the issue of dress codes. This is at the heart of the matter for Nathan’s original question about the traditionally ideal time for a BBSBA.

The straight and narrow answer is that the dress Argyll is a semi-formal jacket, as shown in the handy chart from Kinloch Anderson below. Before 6:00 PM this is formal daywear, aka morning dress, and is typically worn with a long tie. After 6:00 PM it is formal eveningwear, aka black tie, and is usually worn with a black bow tie.



Note the problem of calling the BBSBA “semi-formal” when it is actually worn as formalwear; the distinction is that it isn’t suitable for full formal, aka white tie. This usage of “semi-formal” follows the classic dress codes of informal, semi-formal, and formal, with day and evening variants for the first two and “formal” technically being eveningwear only. See the following chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dress_c...informal_codes

In practice, however, semi-formal is a bit of an ambiguous dress code. People carve up the issue of formality differently, which has as much to do with geographic location as it does with age, culture, and social class. See the info-graphics below for what I mean regarding terminology:





Before anyone calls me out, I realize that those info-graphics are of Saxon attire. My point is that in contemporary times, traditional dress code terminology and practice is not as clear as it once was.

The result is that the black barathea silver button Argyll can do more than morning dress and black tie. Ideally and traditionally, those are the two times when it is worn, but practically speaking, it can be pressed into service at other times. More specifically, it is useful for times—day or night—when one wants/needs to be more dressed up than tweed, but not as dressed up as black tie.

I base this on the comments of some of our Scottish members (Calgacus and MacMillan of Rathdown) as well as what I’ve seen from Scots like the Duke of Argyll or the fellow who addressed the haggis at a St. Andrew’s event I attended.

Duke of Argyll


Furthermore, Kinloch Anderson says this of the BBSBA:
“Our Argyll Kilt Jackets are the ideal semi formal kilt jacket that can be worn on almost any occasion. It is our only truly versatile kilt jacket that can be worn in the day and evening events”

And the Scottish Tartans Authority says this of it:
“The Argyll jacket is an extremely useful addition to the wardrobe in that it can be worn for semi formal occasions during the day but is also suitable for evening events where wearing anything more formal would be out of place.“

Hopefully this is helpful for teasing out some of the nuances of theory and practice. As always, context needs to be the key determinant of the ideal time for the BBSBA.

[JohntheBiker]

Thank you Nathan. I like this type of thread. Frankly, it's where I get inspiration for trying different looks.

My Argyll is probably the least used jacket in my wardrobe, at least in part because I have heard what Jock Scot has advised about the Argyll as a morning suit equivalent. However, I recently wore it for a nephew's wedding that didn't warrant the all out formality of a PC.

Recently posted in another thread:



Only person there in a kilt. Probably could have worn a tweed jacked, but I think the Argyll worked.

[Dileasgubas]

Alright, I think I detect a trans-Atlantic misunderstanding here. Perhaps I am wrong, but the above post seems to confirm a suspicion that I have had about this thread for some time, that many outwith the UK regard a suit as formal? Also in the UK, a "dress shirt" is not a shirt worn with a lounge/business suit. A "dress shirt" in UK terms is worn with formal black/white tie evening attire and a shirt worn with a suit is well, just a shirt.

To complicate things a tad, the formal morning suit does not actually require a "dress shirt", an ordinary white shirt(other coloured options are sometimes worn by some ) is required. So in the UK a morning suit is as formal as a "black/white tie" evening event, except its worn during the day.

So to put all that into kilt attire eqivalent. The tweed argyll is the equivalent of a Saxon business/lounge suit(not formal) and the BBSBA is eqivalent to the morning suit(day time formal). It follows then that the tweed argyll(with plain and patterned shirt options) covers everything from a BBQ up to and including events requiring a business/lounge suit----plus a tad on occasion. So extremely versatile and in fact covers far more options than the Saxon suit.

On the other hand the BBSBA, in its daytime mode, is formal(UK definition), it has no other place in daytime use.

I think it may help to remember that Saxon attire and kilt attire conventions started life from two very different places and cultures, so this idea that a tweed argyll, for example, is a sports coat is quite incorrect. For what it is worth, I think that if one chooses to wear kilt attire within the kilt attire conventions then it is down to those that want to do it properly to understand those kilt attire conventions, and to do that one has to ignore certain Saxon attire conventions completely, to grasp it. Then and only then, can one successfully "marry up" kilt attire conventions to a predominantly Saxon attire event.

Hope this helps.

I agree with you about trans-Atlantic misunderstanding: what you would call a dress shirt, one with studs, wingtip collar, etc., I would call a formal shirt. A semantic difference well worth pointing out. However, most so us would not consider business suiits to be formal attire, although they invariably tend to crop up more and more at "formal" events. This is likely because men's wardrobes may not contain much formal wear these days. I would like to think that kilt wearers worldwide do tend to raise the bar in that regard, happily.

Also a very good point about not attempting to exactly match highland attire to Saxon dress norms. This post points out the differences quite well.

Finally, may I say that the many wonderful photos in his post do highlight the versatility of the BBSBA, even though it may tend to be worn in more limited circumstances?

Overall, a great discussion.

[Taskr]

For someone new to wearing the kilt, this discussion and others like it are an invaluable resource regardless of where they reside on the forum. Specifically, they have been of great help providing knowledgable influence in where the precious household dollar will be spent in bringing the kilt from casual wear to business and formal/semi-formal.
I also think ball caps, or any hat, at dining tables are terrible

[Father Bill]

You are entitled not to like it and it may even disgust you, but I caution you against absolute value judgements like labelling casual dining categorically "disgusting."

A correction: I did not label casual dining disgusting; just the wearing of trashy clothes in restaurants. That's not casual, it's just dirty and/or ripped.

Caution anyone you like against value judgements, but they are the necessary elements of discussion and if as you say it may disgust me, then by definition of the words, it is indeed disgusting... to at least this one crabby old guy.

What I'm trying to get across is that I hate it when I take my wife out to a pleasant restaurant and we have to share the space with people who haven't even the manners to remove their hats at table. Basic, simple manners are never out of style, just it seems, out of memory.

[Pipersson]

Much has been said about the formality of Argyll jackets today but some time ago it was worn as equal evening wear - MacKinnon for example suggests to wear it with a jabot, what seems to be very formal to me.
I am not a big friend of the PC because of the cut and like to wear the Argyll as formal evening wear instead (with a low ct waistcoat).
Some of our members demonstrate how impressing it can be, Nathan for example...
And on this picture it is worn with a white tie as full formal outfit...



As part of kilted morning dress equivalent it is also worn. For a morning suit is equal to tails in the evening it seems to be a hint that the Argyll is a jacket for formal AND semi formal occasions depending on how you combine it... much more flexibel than a PC.
So it seems a modern view to consider it purely "semi-formal".
And the cut is much more highland than the mess jacket military style of a PC IMHO...

I like it and prefer it.

Tom

[MacCathmhaoil]

And on this picture it is worn with a white tie as full formal outfit...

It would appear that the Argyll in the image may have satin lapels, that would better suit a slightly more formal evening event in my opinion.