What are we allowed to post in this section?

[davidlpope]

How about forums labelled thusly:

Traditional - to discuss anything related to wearing of the kilt in a traditional manner

Contemporary - to discuss anything relatedto wearing of the kilt in a contemporary manner

It really is just this simple...

[Semiomniscient]

Some have said that they feel that without a dedicated THCD section the forum will suffer.

This is contrary to the numbers and facts. X Marks has had almost 19,000 people join the forum. Many leave very soon after joining because they cannot find anywhere to post about how they do, or want, to wear the kilt.

I hear often from this new members that they are made to feel unwelcome due to a few who tout the traditional way.
I am honestly try to find a way for all these others to join us and feel welcome.

I honestly feel this will make the forum stronger.

Stronger how? By disenfranchising the people who are the most historically invested in Highland Attire? Heavens above! If you are so worried about how "welcomed" new people feel, give the big bad THCD boys somewhere to play instead of letting them "spread their unwelcoming ways" all over the forum. You are obviously unconcerned about how welcomed those old boys feel.

[Alan H]

You know, I do read this forum, now and then. I've even hand-sewed up traditional 8 yard wool kilts. I own hand-knitted kilt hose. I own a jacket and waistcoat that were specifically tailored for me for more formal occasions, thou here in California "formality" is quite a few notches lower than what probably most of you gents would consider as "formal". I don't hate "traditional" kilt wearing, nor do I hate the guys who like to wear their kilts in that manner.

I wrote out a long expose on what gets written that's offensive, and how a certain attitude pervades a number of guys comments on things that they don't like, but we've been over all this ground SO many times before that I just deleted it all. There's no point. I also note that I'm guilty, now and then, of doing exactly what I object to. So I resign myself to just ranting about it every now and then, when it comes up.

EDIT: I also encourage folks to smack me upside th' haid if they see me pronouncing my view as being the better view, and even implying that someone else is "wrong", or "uneducated", or somehow "less" than myself for any reason whatsoever to do with clothing, in any way.

[Alan H]

I also think that there should be space and time available on XMTS for guys with more traditional outlooks on how to wear the kilt, to discuss what interests them. We all benefit from the discussions, even if we don't participate in them, much. I know that I do.

[artificer]

...
I hear often from this new members that they are made to feel unwelcome due to a few who tout the traditional way.
I am honestly try to find a way for all these others to join us and feel welcome.

I honestly feel this will make the forum stronger.

Steve,
Please don't take offence at this as I'm not trying to be combative, just trying to figure out the particular line of logic...

How does effectively removing the Traditional subforum help these new members feel less unwelcome?
If anything, it seems to me that pushing all the Traditional-based topics (traditionally worn accessories, Jackets, etc) into the general
"Accessories" sub-forum is only going to aggravate the situation, as noobie posters are going to be getting a LOT MORE Traditional feedback
with all the Traditionally-inclined posters now crossing streams with the Contemporary wearers AND the Noobs,
as the threads will now be jumbled all together.

If the overall tone of the forum is "too Traditional and unwelcoming" (something I've never personally found to be the case)
it seems like forcing those Traditionalists to post in a non-traditional area when they are looking for Traditionally-minded feedback
is only going to exacerbate the issue.

I wouldn't go into the Heavy Athletics thread to ask about Celtic Music, nor would I go into Celtic languages to discuss garters vs flashes.
I'm failing to see why the idea of a Traditional Style subforum is suddenly so troubling.

This seems like a Solution desperately crying out for a Problem, or at the very least a not-particularly helpful Solution for the Problem cited.
ith:

[MacLowlife]

In some other form of media, I saw or heard a discussion of "creole"- I think it was Creole music in Louisiana. Someone gave two or three slightly different definitions of creole and then he said "Here is the one I like best: A creole is anyone who says he is." Granted, there are times when self-definition can be confusing, unhelpful, even exasperating. But within a community, letting the (self-selected) members define the community seems to me to be much more useful than saying "YOU, You aren't a Creole. I say you're something else."

And, honestly, how different is that from saying "What you seem to think is a discussion of traditional kilts and how they are worn is not really that at all. Oh, and thanks for contributing free content to this website"?

It is easy enough to be dictatorial. But being dictatorial and successful is another matter. I am fairly certain the dozen or so people who regularly try to post in the Traditional sub-forum make little difference to the bottom line of XMarks or its sponsors. I would imagine the few dozen or more who read it and do not post have about the same effect. But I don't see much point in running people off just because you can.

[Alan H]

I see all the new sub-forums. I dunno Steve, is the "kilts" topic big enough to support all those sub-forums? It seems to me like a lot of the sub-forums already get very little action. I think I grok what you're trying to do, though. Maybe we should just try it for a while and re-evaluate in a couple of months.

As an aside, I don't think that Steve is trying to "run-off" anybody. He's just doing the best that he can to create a generally supportive environment and sometimes that's not so easy. Maybe instead of assuming the worst, that Steve Ashton is "Out to get'cha'" we should all ease up a bit and not aim accusations at him. See what he's thinking of, or trying out, and give constructive feedback.

[Steve Ashton]

It seems strange that I am now being accused of taking something away from someone. When in fact that thing I am being accused of taking away never actually existed in the first place.

Strange.

I said that there are no forum sections on X Marks dedicated any particular fashion. Then a suggestion is made to improve the forum by changing the topic of a forum section from the way a kilt is made to how and when it can be worn.

This would in fact increase the opportunity for those who dress in one or another fashion to post in more places than ever before.

That seemed like a pretty good suggestion to me.

If you don't agree with the suggestion I can turn off these new sub-sections. Or, if you wish we can tweek the descriptions of the sub-sections. You may notice that what said costume wear now includes vintage wear at the suggestion of one of our members.

[Tobus]

With all due respect, the new subforum descriptions are terrible. I can't think of any other way to put it. They miss the point completely.

All the new subforums seem to be focused on WHY people wear the kilt. Traditionalists have many reasons for wearing the kilt, but what we want to talk about is HOW we wear the kilt (and all its accessories), within the context of Highland tradition. None of the new subforum descriptions address that.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think the original question has been answered. Very simply put, why do we have a traditional subforum?

Those of us who want to discuss various kilt-related topics solely within the context of Highland civilian tradition should have a place to do so, where it is understood that the conversation remains wholly within that tradition. Is it your position that no such topics should be allowed, or no such dedicated subforum will be provided, in order to keep a more welcoming atmosphere?

[Taskr]

An interesting discussion. From this easy chair, all valid. I consider Steve's challenge is making XMarks to be a forum for all. This is not a new revelation and is visible on any forum that has longevity. The members and the ideas change and the forum owner(s) and moderators try their best to keep up. TCHD, for example, is an entirely XMarks concept from all that I've read..and has its spread as to the actual definition. Still, if the OP is to discuss a type of jacket in the TCHD thread because that is the theme of the OP, then so be it and perhaps/perhaps that should be stated clearly at the outset (Not to discuss argyll in gerneral, but argyll as worn TCHD, I've been pondering .....")

The problem comes in the myriad ways to categorize data - which is being said many ways in this thread. I think we have to give Steve the benefit of the doubt on the newly minted sub-forums and allow the respective traffic on each determine their validity. Our part will a judiscious choice on just where we want to place that OP forming (or perhaps fermenting ) in the brain.

IMO