Clan Douglas

[Mathew MacKillop]

I am hoping that someone has an answer to this one!

My Scot connections are (on my mother's side) Douglas, and (from my father) MacKillop. I know that many (though certainly not all) members here would tell me to wear whatever tartan I please. I would greatly prefer, though, to wear the ones that I would normally wear had I been born in Scotland and raised in a traditional fashion, or at least those that I can confidently say are a part of my history. This would limit me to my own very rare (and so extremely costly) family tartan, as pictured as my avatar. I rather like it, but cost is a major factor and it will be quite a few years before I can invest in a custom-made kilt in that tartan. There are various MacDonald/MacDonnell tartans that may be acceptable, but I remain uncertain as to which ones.
Though again some here may disagree, I would not have any problems with wearing the Douglas tartan to honour my grandmother. To do so, though, I would want to formally make the request from someone who can officially grant such permissions, but there is no Chief of Clan Douglas, so am at a loss of who I should be contacting.
If there is anyone here who can enlighten me, I would be very grateful. Also, if there are any here who can clear up matters regarding which MacDonald tartans are plausible choices, I'd love to hear from you regarding that as well.
As a side note, cost is not the only factor that would make me hesitate to go with the MacKillop tartan any time soon...I look absolutely terrible in red!

[tky58]

form the www.clandouglassociety.org/septs/ website:

Who decides whether a surname belongs to Clan X?

Determining which surnames are septs or allied families of a clan is one of the prerogatives of the clan chief. Clan Douglas, while an armerigious (arms-bearing) family recognized as a clan by the Lord Lyon of Scotland, currently has no standing chief.

Without a standing chief, CDSNA has selected certain guidelines in determining the surnames it accepts as Septs and/or Allied Families of our Clan Douglas organization. The criteria used for determining what surnames are (or can be) Septs or Allied Families of Clan Douglas (as published in the August 2005 Dubh Ghlase) are as follows:

[A] Those of the surname of Douglas, in all of its many and varied forms, are not Septs: they are FAMILY and are to be treated as such.

[B] Those families whose surname was originally Douglas but have suffered a change of name due to the conditions prevailing at some point in history; i.e. Drysdale.

[C] Those families who were known to be followers of the Douglas family in the past.

[D] Those families who are known to have served the Douglas family in times past as either estate managers, farm workers, men-at-arms, scribes, chancellors; i.e. Bell, Symington, Young, etc.

[E] Those descendants of a female line of the Douglas family who are able to prove their descent and do not owe allegiance to any other family or clan.

[F] Those descendants whose families originated within the known Douglas territories but were too small to have a family status and have no allegiance to any other family or clan.

[G] Those descendants of families who are known to have broken away from their accepted group and are also known to have re-settled within the Douglas territories.

The criteria presented here for Sept and Allied Families names are not listed in the CDSNA Bylaws. At this time, no “official” criteria exist but this list provides a reasonable basis for surname inclusions. It should also be noted that IF the day comes when Clan Douglas does have a standing chief, the Chief of Douglas will have the sole right to create a list of Septs and Allied Families of Clan Douglas and such list may or may not include many names CDSNA and other Douglas associations have accepted as septs and allied families.


I looks to me that you, like my wife's family, would fall under category 'E'.

Hope this helps,
Steve Wilson

[Mathew MacKillop]

"[E] Those descendants of a female line of the Douglas family who are able to prove their descent and do not owe allegiance to any other family or clan."

"I looks to me that you, like my wife's family, would fall under category 'E'."

Thank you for the information, it is more than I was able to find on my own. I do, however, wonder if this is really true for me: I am not sure about the not "owing allegiance to another family or clan". I do have a paternal line that, in theory at least, trumps my maternal line. I am not an official "member" of any other clan, and choosing Douglas at the expense of not being able to choose MacKillop in the future seems a little extreme to me.

Thank you!

Mathew

[Dughlas mor]

Mathew, I`m pretty sure that you became member of clan Mackillop the hour you were born, and will be one til the hour that you pass on. You will always have the right to wear that tartan, regardless of anything.

[Stokegers]

The clan Douglas tartan is freely available to rent from Greenwoods in the UK. The clan Douglas tartan was the regimental tartan of my Grandad's regiment The Cameronians -The Scottish Rifles.

[Taskr]

I wear my mother's family tartan. My father is Irish/Acadian origin. If my mother' mother's tartan is woven in a colour palette I like it will go on the kilt wish list. I understand the desire to be 'correctly' wearing a tartan, but there is also the practicality of self style that can be equally valid. I've read on threads often, paraphrased; Be confident in your choice for your reasons, then wear it confidently.

[Mathew MacKillop]

Hi Everyone!

The insights of members on this board have been quite informative, and I really appreciate it. I have a feeling that my next kilt will be of a Douglas Green tartan!
I have realized (from other threads) that the majority of the rabble here seem to not have much issue with any person wearing whatever tartan they please; however I cannot find myself completely in agreement with this. I can easily see from the eyes of some of the purists that you should wear your family tartan, and no other. It must indeed look odd to a native Highlander when someone wears a different family from one day to the next, and I can understand that they may view such a person as a "pseudo-Scot" and perhaps not appreciate it. Mimicry may be the greatest form of flattery...but it can also be a bloody nuisance. It is to honour my Scottish heritage that I want to wear the kilt, and offending the sensibilities of current Scots (at least, where it can be helped!) seems like a poor way of doing so.
If there were indeed a Douglas Chief for me to write to and obtain official permission to wear the colours, I would have been very pleased. As is, the emotional attachment of wearing my Grandmother's tartan will have to be enough; she raised me much more so than my actual parents, so I think it is appropriate.
Plus, I don't want to be stuck with district or fashion (shudder) tartans. I'd have to sell off a kidney to pay for a custom woven MacKillop tank!

[Grunthos]

It must indeed look odd to a native Highlander when someone wears a different family from one day to the next, and I can understand that they may view such a person as a "pseudo-Scot" and perhaps not appreciate it.

Possibly, and next time you spend a few weeks in one place in the Highlands, you might actually have to consider it. Until then, everyone else on the planet around you is just going to appreciate your great colors.

the emotional attachment of wearing my Grandmother's tartan will have to be enough; she raised me much more so than my actual parents, so I think it is appropriate.

Now THERE is a reason to wear it proudly!

I don't want to be stuck with district or fashion (shudder) tartans

I'm not quite sure what you have in mind that you are shuddering over, but there are many folks quite proud to wear a universal tartan, such as Black Watch or one of the many Stewarts. Some of the "fashion" tartans celebrating or commemorating our soldiers, police and firefighters have a lot of proud wearers, many with closer feelings of family than their own blood relatives. "Fashion" can be a dismissive term for a broad swath of groups and connections.

In any case, don't sweat it too much-- pick one and wear it proudly. You'll have time to expand your collection later

[Mathew MacKillop]

I live in Montreal, in an English-speaking area. There are quite a few older Scottish immigrants living here, and I would not want any of them to harbor any ill-will, or even feel a faint insult by my mere presence in their family tartan if they happen to be the sort of folks who are sensitive to that sort of thing. Same reason I don't wear vulgar t-shirts or carry signs regarding my opinion on religion or politics. Those that can be insulted, will be insulted, and it's often soon evident that there is no reasoning with unreasonable people. So, even outside of Scottland, it does worry me a bit to wear a Tartan that my family name is not attached to.

Of course, any reasonable person (which I optimistically believe to be the majority), will accept my "right" to it through my grandmother, and I do think I will happily wear her colours, too, and have no problem explaining the reasons to anyone who cares enough to ask. Maybe if I am eloquent enough even the ultra-orthodox will leave me be!

I hope no insult was taken at my reaction to the "fashion" tartans...and really, I was not referring to al the universal ones. I do not remember which of the "official" tartan sites I was checking out, but one of them actually had an image on file for "MacKillop" and none of the others did, so I used it to through pages and pages of tartans. They listed them in the following fashion: "Black Watch (Military)", "Douglas (Clan/Family)," and so on. Some of them had "fashion" in the brackets instead. While some of them where obvious in nature, such as "commemorative-this-or-that", but others where just company names and numbers, colours adopted by politcal parties, and a whole bunch that under the description read "proposed to so-and-so, rejected." and so on.

Now, I think it is demeaning of the kilt to use it for political promotion, and not representative of democracy, in a way. I hope to not violate any rules, but I would just say that if a politician is going to wear a kilt, let him wear a family, district, or regimental tartan, and truly represent his people. Enough of that though.

Companies can have all the tartans they want, but I want nothing of them. The ones that aren't even being used by anyone are equally meaningless to me. Besides that, many of them are rather...garish.

I was not including the military tartans or those for non-political groups, whatever they may be, in my shudder. My first kilt will be a SWK Heavyweight Black Watch; I can understand their value and appeal, but I would still prefer that my next one be a family tartan!

[Father Bill]

I agree strongly with most of your sentiment, Mathew, I just don't hold it quite as strongly as you express it here.

Almost... but not quite! In my opinion you have every necessary connection to wear Granny's tartan with pride and honour and consider it your own. The clan system was designed to recruit warriors, so in most clans, either a man or woman's children were members of their clan, but the man's normally took priority. Similarly for the generations that followed. You will find that much discussed here.

Wear it! Flaunt it! Love it! Just don't over-explain it. To say "It's my family tartan" will satisfy 99.9% of the folks you'll encounter.