Black tie and white tie for kilts?

[TomFromBama]

Well... I'll come off as a toff here, but it was by mutual agreement that people dress certain ways for certain occasions, and by doing so it was a sign of mutual respect. I admire mutual respect.

Showing up in jeans at a "lounge suit and tie" event is usually a sign of disrespect more than poverty. Similarly, showing up in black tie at a jeans and jumper event is equally disrespectful. It's a matter of respecting the wishes - usually of the host(s).

This ^^^

As an aside, and just for what its worth, here in Mobile we have a relatively old Carnival tradition (at least by North American standards ) dating to 1703, and quite a few active Carnival associations, many of which host formal Balls. The majority of these are "White Tie", and many are, by agreement of their respective memberships, strictly enforced "Costume de Rigueur", which is interpreted locally as "straight up" traditional White Tie - Black tailcoat, White pique shirt, vest and bowtie, black shoes, and NO colored accessories of any kind beyond perhaps cufflinks.

As a result, Mobile probably has the largest per-capita ownership of White-Tie apparel in the world. But it also means that, at least in my "universe", there would be no such thing as a White Tie Kilt outfit, as I'd be denied admission to most formal Balls here, and rightly so.

That said, I do enjoy wearing Black Tie to various appropriate events - Symphony, Opera, Ballet, etc., and my hope for 2015, budget permitting, will be to acquire a few remaining accessories and discard my black trousers in favor of a kilt for "Black Tie" occasions.

[MacLowlife]

This ^^^

As an aside, and just for what its worth, here in Mobile we have a relatively old Carnival tradition (at least by North American standards ) dating to 1703, and quite a few active Carnival associations, many of which host formal Balls. The majority of these are "White Tie", and many are, by agreement of their respective memberships, strictly enforced "Costume de Rigueur", which is interpreted locally as "straight up" traditional White Tie - Black tailcoat, White pique shirt, vest and bowtie, black shoes, and NO colored accessories of any kind beyond perhaps cufflinks.

As a result, Mobile probably has the largest per-capita ownership of White-Tie apparel in the world. But it also means that, at least in my "universe", there would be no such thing as a White Tie Kilt outfit, as I'd be denied admission to most formal Balls here, and rightly so.

That said, I do enjoy wearing Black Tie to various appropriate events - Symphony, Opera, Ballet, etc., and my hope for 2015, budget permitting, will be to acquire a few remaining accessories and discard my black trousers in favor of a kilt for "Black Tie" occasions.

TFB, have you ever seen anyone kilted at a white tie event in Mobile? I have been to a few white tie events in SC and have never seen anyone kilted, but exceptions/ deviations are allowed for member/ students at USNA, USMA, etc. to wear their uniforms, maybe even young active duty officers.
I am not sure, but I believe I have seen young men in full dress uniforms from The Citadel, the Military College of SC.

Despite our broad range of interests here on XMarks, I suspect members at large of a (southern/ eastern American ) "white tie club" would think it odd that someone would show up kilted- even if those same members wear their own kilts to "kilt club" functions. It would be like playing golf in your hunting clothes.

[Downunder Kilt]

The wording on the invitation/ticket is usually the critical thing to look at when attending a white tie event. If the statement is "White Tie" then they want you in white tie, not national dress or highland equivalent. If they are to allow for those modes of dress then , by etiquette, the organisers will stipulate it on the invitation/ticket .

[Jock Scot]

The wording on the invitation/ticket is usually the critical thing to look at when attending a white tie event. If the statement is "White Tie" then they want you in white tie, not national dress or highland equivalent. If they are to allow for those modes of dress then , by etiquette, the organisers will stipulate it on the invitation/ticket .

Exactly so! It is one thing to understand and know what "white tie" Highland attire actually means. It is another matter entirely, to know and understand when and where it should be worn. That is the point that Steve was correctly making at the start of this thread, just because we know how to do something does not mean that we should, or evan can(from a social aspect) do it, as our friend from Mobile points out.

If we take Sandy's picture of two Dukes of Scotland dressed in the kilt at a State function IN SCOTLAND then they are perfectly correct. Had the event been outwith Scotland then they would have been incorrectly attired. Even so, I very much doubt that wearing the kilt by the Scottish Dukes at this function within Scotland, was a mere whim and considerable thought and discussion would have gone on behind the scenes beforehand. We should note that the King of Sweden and the Duke of Gloucester(an English Duke)are not wearing the kilt. Context in these circumstances are everything as are the express wishes of one's host. If you cannot comply then don't go. It is that simple.

[TomFromBama]

TFB, have you ever seen anyone kilted at a white tie event in Mobile? I have been to a few white tie events in SC and have never seen anyone kilted, but exceptions/ deviations are allowed for member/ students at USNA, USMA, etc. to wear their uniforms, maybe even young active duty officers.
I am not sure, but I believe I have seen young men in full dress uniforms from The Citadel, the Military College of SC.

Despite our broad range of interests here on XMarks, I suspect members at large of a (southern/ eastern American ) "white tie club" would think it odd that someone would show up kilted- even if those same members wear their own kilts to "kilt club" functions. It would be like playing golf in your hunting clothes.

No, never seen a kilt at a local White Tie event, and I'd really be surprised if I did. Then again, the ONLY "White Tie" events I've ever attended are local Mardi Gras balls, and as noted, the majority of those are strictly "Costume de Rigueur" - and even Tuxedos are turned away, as are ladies in gowns that are not floor length.

Its an interesting thing (at least to me) that the various organizations differ on Military full dress; some allow and some do not!~ I personally have some trouble with that, as I think full dress military should be accorded the same "respect", if you will, as traditional White Tie, but again - this is a matter decided by the membership of each organization.

[Spartan Tartan]

Not to derail this thread... From the U.S.Navy point of view, "Full Dress" is a particular manner of wearing a dress uniform and is NOT in anyway equivalent to White Tie. In fact, there is a specific "white tie mess dress" (which is an optional uniform) that is to be worn if attending a State dinner or other white tie event.

I'm just clearing up what I see as a misunderstanding of Navy uniforms.

Often times, full dress is as nice as a Sailor owns and will be accepted due to it being a military uniform at a civilian event. However, just because it may be accepted, I assure you full dress in not white tie.

[AFS1970]

I think this may just be the only thread here where nobody has put forth the theory that a kilt is a garment just like trousers and you should wear the same thing above the waist no matter what you are wearing below the waist. I find this oddly funny, but also quite helpful.

[Holcombe Thomas]

This is a great thread; I'm learning a lot.

To add to MacLowlife's comments regarding Full Dress and The Citadel, Full Dress is the "dressiest" uniform in the inventory. It is, however, the equivalent of a tuxedo in formality. One can wear it (and when I was a cadet there, I would have worn it) to a white tie event, but, as Spartan Tartan notes, it isn't that it's white tie, it's that everyone knows it's the best the cadet has. The fact that the coat is high-waisted and has short tails makes it fit in somewhat with white tie, though it isn't the equivalent.

[Nathan]

One should be careful not to confuse "White tie" with "Highland White Tie". Usually white tie and tails are an acceptable alternative at a Highland White Tie event but the opposite is not always the case. Don't wear a kilt to get the nobel prize.

One might be tempted to assume that the kilt is a below the waist thing and everything above the waist ought to be the same as with Saxon attire, but this is not reflective of the history or tradition as practiced in the Highlands. Jock Scot has pointed this out above.

If, as has been mentioned by others, the event calls for "White tie or Highland attire" or "White Tie or National Dress", one who chooses to wear Highland attire as indicated on the invitation should wear the most formal accessories, including:

Jabot, black bowtie, stock or white bowtie
Prince Charlie coatee or Formal doublet (In barathea or velvet)
Diced or Argyll hose
Opera/dance pumps, buckle brogues (patent leather or polished to a high gloss.)
Dress sporran (fur with metal cantle)