Black tie and white tie for kilts?

[Taskr]

Thanks JSF. Interesting the website doesn't use the convention - but in retrospect the descriptions provide emphasis on expectations. Good to hear the scoop from one whom has been there, the event providing view to the highland/saxon/military harmony of formal states of dress.
I wasn't commmenting that the highland dress in the photo was unacceptable, only noting it has 'been done'
Always something to learn through discussion.

[Jock Scot]

Interesting photo, JSF. While apparently white tie, the Duke and Prince yet wear black tie with highland formal and baldrick. Something to add to my notes.

I wonder if you are mistaking the blue sash, which in the picture most are wearing, as a baldrick? The blue sash indicates an Order of Chivalry, that are worn by those few that have them at full state functions and some other ultra formal occasions.

As a general comment on the thread there are genuine misunderstandings about "white tie" and "black tie" functions as far as Highland attire goes. As far as "white tie" Highland attire goes we do not take the colour of the tie literally, it does also depend on the style of jacket being worn and as such in most circumstances, a black tie is perfectly correct highland attire for a white tie event.

Yes it is very confusing for those brought up on "Saxon" attire conventions, but we must remember at all times that "Saxon" and "Highland" attire do not come from the same roots and traditions. If you like, each tradition is looking at the same situation, but each from a completely different direction and the conclusions are very likely to be different, but if those conclusions drawn, are correct, then both will be right, but not quite the same! Many still fail to grasp this when trying to match up their attire to suit the event. As another example of this, many who are unaware of these differing traditions wrongly regard a tweed kilt jacket as a Saxon sports jacket, where in fact, in kilt terms, a tweed kilt jacket is equal to a Saxon lounge/business suit.

This is precisely what happens, with those that fail to understand this, at the far more common "black tie" events when people overdress for the occasion, with diced hose, silver buckled shoes etc.. To be clear here, diced hose, silver buckled shoes and Montrose jackets with a jabot and lace cuffs(yes I know,in this case ,not a black tie in a white tie context! ) are, best worn for "white tie" events.

[Taskr]

Jock,
Not mistaken, per se, just went with the term that crossed my mind initially and didn't bother to change it. Error of omission, but an error still.
Thanks for your commentary - as always. Highland attire is not something we concern ourselves with very much in the Office, but what I'm learning here, and on the forum writ large, is definately being noted for those occassions (as we have similarity researched for some unique Representatives). I take fully your comments that matching is not equitable to the differing foundations of custom. I think I'm going to stick with 'harmony of dress' for that reason across all dress customs.
What I'm finding most interesting from the photos, CalBall website, and comments is the dressing up of the kilt to evening wear without the over-the-top accoutrements and embellishments that, I'll surmise, have come from the hire industry. The State Banquet photo especially, and your commentary highlight its unique elegance. (That photo has joined my notes, JSF. Thx)

[TomFromBama]

Well... I'll come off as a toff here, but it was by mutual agreement that people dress certain ways for certain occasions, and by doing so it was a sign of mutual respect. I admire mutual respect.

Showing up in jeans at a "lounge suit and tie" event is usually a sign of disrespect more than poverty. Similarly, showing up in black tie at a jeans and jumper event is equally disrespectful. It's a matter of respecting the wishes - usually of the host(s).

This ^^^

As an aside, and just for what its worth, here in Mobile we have a relatively old Carnival tradition (at least by North American standards ) dating to 1703, and quite a few active Carnival associations, many of which host formal Balls. The majority of these are "White Tie", and many are, by agreement of their respective memberships, strictly enforced "Costume de Rigueur", which is interpreted locally as "straight up" traditional White Tie - Black tailcoat, White pique shirt, vest and bowtie, black shoes, and NO colored accessories of any kind beyond perhaps cufflinks.

As a result, Mobile probably has the largest per-capita ownership of White-Tie apparel in the world. But it also means that, at least in my "universe", there would be no such thing as a White Tie Kilt outfit, as I'd be denied admission to most formal Balls here, and rightly so.

That said, I do enjoy wearing Black Tie to various appropriate events - Symphony, Opera, Ballet, etc., and my hope for 2015, budget permitting, will be to acquire a few remaining accessories and discard my black trousers in favor of a kilt for "Black Tie" occasions.

[MacLowlife]

This ^^^

As an aside, and just for what its worth, here in Mobile we have a relatively old Carnival tradition (at least by North American standards ) dating to 1703, and quite a few active Carnival associations, many of which host formal Balls. The majority of these are "White Tie", and many are, by agreement of their respective memberships, strictly enforced "Costume de Rigueur", which is interpreted locally as "straight up" traditional White Tie - Black tailcoat, White pique shirt, vest and bowtie, black shoes, and NO colored accessories of any kind beyond perhaps cufflinks.

As a result, Mobile probably has the largest per-capita ownership of White-Tie apparel in the world. But it also means that, at least in my "universe", there would be no such thing as a White Tie Kilt outfit, as I'd be denied admission to most formal Balls here, and rightly so.

That said, I do enjoy wearing Black Tie to various appropriate events - Symphony, Opera, Ballet, etc., and my hope for 2015, budget permitting, will be to acquire a few remaining accessories and discard my black trousers in favor of a kilt for "Black Tie" occasions.

TFB, have you ever seen anyone kilted at a white tie event in Mobile? I have been to a few white tie events in SC and have never seen anyone kilted, but exceptions/ deviations are allowed for member/ students at USNA, USMA, etc. to wear their uniforms, maybe even young active duty officers.
I am not sure, but I believe I have seen young men in full dress uniforms from The Citadel, the Military College of SC.

Despite our broad range of interests here on XMarks, I suspect members at large of a (southern/ eastern American ) "white tie club" would think it odd that someone would show up kilted- even if those same members wear their own kilts to "kilt club" functions. It would be like playing golf in your hunting clothes.

[Downunder Kilt]

The wording on the invitation/ticket is usually the critical thing to look at when attending a white tie event. If the statement is "White Tie" then they want you in white tie, not national dress or highland equivalent. If they are to allow for those modes of dress then , by etiquette, the organisers will stipulate it on the invitation/ticket .

[Jock Scot]

The wording on the invitation/ticket is usually the critical thing to look at when attending a white tie event. If the statement is "White Tie" then they want you in white tie, not national dress or highland equivalent. If they are to allow for those modes of dress then , by etiquette, the organisers will stipulate it on the invitation/ticket .

Exactly so! It is one thing to understand and know what "white tie" Highland attire actually means. It is another matter entirely, to know and understand when and where it should be worn. That is the point that Steve was correctly making at the start of this thread, just because we know how to do something does not mean that we should, or evan can(from a social aspect) do it, as our friend from Mobile points out.

If we take Sandy's picture of two Dukes of Scotland dressed in the kilt at a State function IN SCOTLAND then they are perfectly correct. Had the event been outwith Scotland then they would have been incorrectly attired. Even so, I very much doubt that wearing the kilt by the Scottish Dukes at this function within Scotland, was a mere whim and considerable thought and discussion would have gone on behind the scenes beforehand. We should note that the King of Sweden and the Duke of Gloucester(an English Duke)are not wearing the kilt. Context in these circumstances are everything as are the express wishes of one's host. If you cannot comply then don't go. It is that simple.

[TomFromBama]

TFB, have you ever seen anyone kilted at a white tie event in Mobile? I have been to a few white tie events in SC and have never seen anyone kilted, but exceptions/ deviations are allowed for member/ students at USNA, USMA, etc. to wear their uniforms, maybe even young active duty officers.
I am not sure, but I believe I have seen young men in full dress uniforms from The Citadel, the Military College of SC.

Despite our broad range of interests here on XMarks, I suspect members at large of a (southern/ eastern American ) "white tie club" would think it odd that someone would show up kilted- even if those same members wear their own kilts to "kilt club" functions. It would be like playing golf in your hunting clothes.

No, never seen a kilt at a local White Tie event, and I'd really be surprised if I did. Then again, the ONLY "White Tie" events I've ever attended are local Mardi Gras balls, and as noted, the majority of those are strictly "Costume de Rigueur" - and even Tuxedos are turned away, as are ladies in gowns that are not floor length.

Its an interesting thing (at least to me) that the various organizations differ on Military full dress; some allow and some do not!~ I personally have some trouble with that, as I think full dress military should be accorded the same "respect", if you will, as traditional White Tie, but again - this is a matter decided by the membership of each organization.

[Spartan Tartan]

Not to derail this thread... From the U.S.Navy point of view, "Full Dress" is a particular manner of wearing a dress uniform and is NOT in anyway equivalent to White Tie. In fact, there is a specific "white tie mess dress" (which is an optional uniform) that is to be worn if attending a State dinner or other white tie event.

I'm just clearing up what I see as a misunderstanding of Navy uniforms.

Often times, full dress is as nice as a Sailor owns and will be accepted due to it being a military uniform at a civilian event. However, just because it may be accepted, I assure you full dress in not white tie.

[AFS1970]

I think this may just be the only thread here where nobody has put forth the theory that a kilt is a garment just like trousers and you should wear the same thing above the waist no matter what you are wearing below the waist. I find this oddly funny, but also quite helpful.