Military Kilt Measurement Help?

[MinusHD]

This is probably buried somewhere here at XMTS, but being American, and not used to metric measurements, I'm hoping some of you can help me understand the Measurements of an MOD kilt. Here's an example"

Length: 164 (64.6 in... or ball-parking 5' 3" or 5' 4")
Waist: 84 (33.1 in)
Breech: 100 (39.4 in)

So I figure waist and breech are true waist and hip measurements. is "length" the kilt wearer's height? Any additional explanation would be great, too.

Thanks,
Minus

[OC Richard]

Yes you are correct, British military kilts give wearer's height/waist/breech.

The length, in the old days, would be the full width of tartan regardless of wearer's height, and therefore wasn't mentioned.

Nowadays they probably use various lengths, but military kilts usually have a greater 'rise' than civilian kilts.

The top buckle (on the side with two buckles) is at the natural waist. The distance from this to the kilt's bottom is called the 'drop' and the distance from this to the binding at the top is called the 'rise'. Rise + drop = total length.

Civilian kilts usually have a 2" rise, military kilts considerably higher.

What this means is that civilian kilts most commonly have a 24" length, while Army kilts are usually 26" or 27".

Here's a great closeup photo of the rear of an Army kilt (The Black Watch) showing all the characteristic features

1) high rise
2) grass-green herringbone binding
3) two-prong black buckles, sewn on with odd-feeling thin cloth black tabs



Here's an Army kilt (The Gordon Highlanders) being worn, in the old days, showing the effect of a 27" height kilt on a short man

[IsaacW]

Ah... I love military kilts. My next will be a Military kilt in 1A. I have seen some Black Watch Argyll and Sutherland, and a number if New Royal Regiment for sale recently. I am just waiting out a good deal and my size. I may have to sell my old Cameron Highlanders kilt to fund it!

[OC Richard]

I couldn't agree more!

On Ebay, a while back, a Royal Regiment of Scotland kilt in exactly my size came up (quite rare, because I'm a big person) and I just couldn't 'pull the trigger'. It's annoying to 'choke' like that!

BTW the RRS kilts are the old Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Officers' kilts, with the distinctive lighter green.

A1 has the darker green, and was worn by Other Ranks in both The Black Watch and The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

I did recently get a super-heavy MOD Other Ranks' weight kilt in Royal Stewart, with the green binding, from House Of Edgar. I switched the civilian straps & buckles it came with for the traditional MOD style.

The MOD OR's tartan has an interesting distinctive look and feel, a bit like a tartan blanket, with a slightly fuzzy surface.

[IsaacW]

The lighter color on the Royal Regiment is a like of mine. I have seen a few lately in my size and am very tempted. Richard, do you know if the current MOD kilts are being machine sewn or hand sewn?

[RichardM]

Great information! Love the military kilt. But it would look like a dress on me. The army kilt in the photo shows exactly were a 27 inch kilt would hit me.

[Pleater]

The rock hurler is, in effect, in a state of undress, for athletic pursuits.

The upper part of the kilt with the blanket binding was not intended for public view, so was not subject to the uniformity of the 'top of the kneecap' for the lower edge.

If it is really something not wanted it should not be all that difficult to have it removed, and the top edge bound in a toning tape.

You just need to be sure that the lower part is the correct size and not relying on the upper part for support.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[OC Richard]

They don't have the crazy-high kits in the Army any more, I don't think, and haven't in many years, because of Shirtsleeve Order where the top of the kilt is visible.

You'll see a large number of photos of kilted soldiers in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy in WWII, and in Hong Kong more recently, in shirtsleeves.

The kilts are a bit higher than civilian kilts, but the height of the kilt is proportional to the wearer.

Here's a fairly recent photo of the Drum Major of The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders in shirtsleeve order where the top of the kilt is visible. Still the green binding of course.



Here are soldiers of the current Royal Regiment Of Scotland in shirtsleeve order. The kilts don't seem all that high.



BTW note that the shirts are devoid of insignia. The Drum Major's rank is worn on a leather wrist strap.

Seems like Americans, when imitating this order of dress, always cover the shirt with dozens of badges, patches, and pins.

[OC Richard]

do you know if the current MOD kilts are being machine sewn or hand sewn?

I wish I had one to examine, but I don't.

I have heard rumours of their manufacture being 'outsourced' but this article says otherwise

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/s...nd/6509605.stm

An MOD contract for 5,000 kilts! Wowza!

The RRS kilts are interesting in that they are, basically, the kilts long worn by officers, warrant officers, and senior sergeants in the Argylls: lighter green, boxpleated.

They do exhibit a couple half-way breaks from Army tradition:

Binding: instead of the traditional grass-green, they are bound in black.

Buckles: instead of the traditional thin black metal two-prong buckles, they have ordinary civilian style buckles, however done with a black finish.

Which makes them look neither like traditional Army kilts, nor civilian kilts, but halfway between.

Here's an RRS kilt. You can see how much lighter the green is than the Black Watch/Argyll OR's kilt seen in my post above. Is the binding here black, or tartan? It seems variegated, but I don't see the pale green of the kilt fabric. I've seen a number of other photos of RRS kilts which appear to show black binding.



Here's a pre-RRS photo of the Pipe Major and Drum Major of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders where you can see the exact light shade of green continued in the kilts of the RRS

[BadenochWolf]

Seems like Americans, when imitating this order of dress, always cover the shirt with dozens of badges, patches, and pins.

What you're seeing is not a direct imitation, but actually a conflation of two distinct uniform styles. I'll explain:

The US Army equivalent of "shirtsleeves dress" is the Class B uniform. The difference lies in the fact that US Army regulations stipulate the wearing of insignia on this short-sleeved uniform shirt. Literally everything that one wears on the Service Dress jacket goes on this shirt. It looks more than a little cluttered, and rather awkward when all the badges are affixed.

Those who have been honorably discharged from military service are authorized to wear their awards on civilian clothes, but they must be worn similarly to how they would be worn on a uniform of comparable formality. "Personnel who wear [decorations] on civilian clothes should place [them] on the clothing in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to [decorations] worn on the Army uniform." (Army Regulation 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia, Ch 23-6 Medals worn on civilian clothes by
Retired personnel and former members of the Army).

The Scottish-American Military Society and other organizations, and individual veterans are rather hamstrung by this insistence. Ergo you have this odd "neither-fish-nor-fowl" look cropping up with a kilt at games and such. They cannot contravene these (rather silly) rules and risk looking foolish to other groups who know the regulations, but they want to wear the kilt AND show their military connections. It's a very "Frankenstein's monster" look made from two very different uniform traditions.