Two Telling comments? The Answer Perhaps?

[The Q]

Originally Posted by McMurdo ... I am sorry you feel the way you do and I am sorry your friend feels the way he does regarding the kilt. To my mind one way to change the mindset would be for Scots, real Scots, to wear the kilt and show the unwashed masses how to do it right.

Change the word "Scots" to Gaels and you would be correct, a Gael and a Scot are not the same thing

[Jock Scot]

Steady on Cyd! I agree with much of what you say and it is refreshing to have a fellow traveler along for the journey! However, once the wounded pride of those from outwith these shores has been soothed, the preconceived ideas from those from outwith Scotland have been adjusted, there is in fact, a fair proportion of those on this website that do really want to learn about Highland attire and attached traditions.

When I joined this website some years ago, almost anything vaguely traditional was met with, er um well, lets say, with polite scepticism and not a little derision. I was amongst a wee band of regular kilt wearers--- traditionalists as we are now called here----- with not only a good knowledge of kilt attire, but also realistic views on Scotland, its traditions AND an understanding-----better by far than mine------ of the rather starry-eyed and fanciful view of things from outwith these shores.

As pendulums do, things began to swing towards the rather less modern outlook and more than a few here that were interested enough to learn about the more normal(traditional) kilt attire and the traditions that go with it and eventually the tide turned. Sadly many stalwarts fell by the wayside as they had enough of the stubborn resistance and more than a little hostility from more than a few here. Which was and is still a sad loss of expertise and wisdom to all kilt wearers, but particularly to those that were and are still showing interest in learning about the more traditional ways of wearing the kilt.

The pendulum looks as though its starting to swing the other way again now, as I see a wish of many wanting to break the mould and thats fine as things rarely stay the same, but I do wish that whilst they are busily kicking at the traces they could also break those damned rose tinted glasses!

But all through my time here, with sometimes causing the odd ripple or two myself, everyone has really tried hard to be agree-able whilst dis-agreeing. That is something that I am proud to be a part of and is a goal that we should all aim for, however frustrating things may get!

[CeilidhDoc]

Cyd, with all due respect, I find your post offensive.

Generalizing that an individual can be judged by prior experience with others is what is rubbish. I am an American, and I have spent a VERY significant amount of time attempting to learn and listen, and adjust what I do based on comments by people who know more than me. I have asked not a few questions on this forum and had some great feedback which I have used to modify my approach to highland attire in many ways. I never ridicule well-intentioned critiques. I thank those that take the time to post them.

If you spend enough time researching things you eventually develop a sense for what is general tradition, what is personal opinion, and who is being mean and who is being genuine in trying to help but has something potentially unpleasant to say. And on different days, different people might fit one or another category depending on their mood and a million other variables, but often there is a trend on this forum of who you can trust and I would say that for that on XMTS I find many.

I would say that one really cannot generalize about if an American or a Scot is more in touch with their own heritage. I lived in Scotland for only 6 months, and it was about 20 years ago. But while there I met Scots who could school anyone on their knowledge of highland dress, and Scots who themselves made a mockery of highland tradition but they really could have cared less. Similarly, in the USA I know many well-meaning Americans who take the step of wearing the kilt to honor their heritage but have no reasonable guidance on how to do it properly. I also know a number of forum members that live quite close to me in the San Francisco Bay Area that know more about traditional highland dress than most Scots I knew in Scotland. I don't know them well, but I know enough to know what they know.

What you seem to be addressing is a group of people who cannot take constructive critique. I agree that without the ability to do this one cannot grow or learn, and it is a common fault of members of the human race to have issues with this regardless of where they were born or their specific genetics. But if we do not strive to improve ourselves, then what the hell is the point?

Let's behave like intellectual creatures rather than simple animals. Humans have a hard time doing what they often assume to be their birthright, which is to elevate their behavior above that of other animals. Treating one another with respect is a very basic thing that can go a long way. I might suggest that you attempt to implement a bit more of that into your own interactions. There is some constructive critique for you. For me, I will continue to have pipe dreams that one day people will simply treat each other more nicely. It is a sad commentary that this too is a pipe dream.

Slàinte

[CDNSushi]

Folks,

Please take this as fair warning, that the moderators have already received a flag based on recent posts in this thread, and to that end, I would strongly suggest that everyone take a good, deep breath, and before hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button. Reconsider what you may be reacting to and what you are trying to achieve in posting your thoughts.

[Cyd]

CeilidhDoc, I was referring to my experience with the group, not you personally. If that offends you I can't help you. It is my experience. There are always exceptions and you certainly can't reasonably expect each of those to be isolated when referring to an overall impression. In fact, I have no idea how one would go about generalizing about an individual as you suggest. In any event, I didn't do any such thing. You are interpreting my comments in an obviously erroneous manner as if to manufacture offense. I simply quoted you to point out that your proposal was already occurring in this very forum. I was, perhaps too subtly for some, pointing out that it isn't the purveyor of information whose attitude must change but the receivers. The information has been offered and is being rejected!

Beyond your first paragraph, I couldn't agree with you more. My issue was with the arrogance of another (non-Scot) presuming he was going to restore Scotland's lost heritage by bringing back casual kilt attire, something that was never a Scottish tradition, save perhaps for a short period amongst a small minority in the highlands.

As to respect, it took quite a bit to get me to this point. Most of that can be described as utter disrespect for not me (although there is some of that) but my country, fellow countrymen and culture. It is easy and common to lecture someone about respect after an expression of anger in the wake of disrespect. In practice it is nothing more than meaningless cliche that fails to address the actual problem.

There are some very useful things on this site. I can access them without suffering the aggravation that comes with interacting with the stupidity that surrounds them. It is of no matter to me what you care to do. Go on thinking you have all the answers and making asses of yourselves each time you leave these shores, and just so we are clear "you" refers to those in the forum who indulge in such behaviour and not to you personally.

[Cyd]

JockScot

Thank you for your wise words. I appreciate there are many civil people here with a genuine desire to share and learn. My angst is raised by only a few. I have been a teacher and a professor for many years and blame no one for ignorance. Lord knows we are all ignorant of much. Unfortunately I have few filters when it comes to dealing with foolishness. I didn't even get half-way through this thread before stumbling over some quite offensive posts that no one apparently found any fault with, yet questioning those posts is now offensive? I suppose if you are going to presume to restore another country's heritage, Scotland is as good a place as any to start. The only question is, where will such like-minded X-markers go next to inform the allegedly misinformed: East to Norway? West to Ireland? or perhaps south to France!

I think it is best for me to bow out of discussions. There is much here I would like access to and I don't wish to get banned because I am easily aggravated by foolish rabble.

[Cyd]

Originally Posted by McMurdo ... I am sorry you feel the way you do and I am sorry your friend feels the way he does regarding the kilt. To my mind one way to change the mindset would be for Scots, real Scots, to wear the kilt and show the unwashed masses how to do it right.

Change the word "Scots" to Gaels and you would be correct, a Gael and a Scot are not the same thing

Except that.... oh why bother.

[Jock Scot]

JockScot

Thank you for your wise words. I appreciate there are many civil people here with a genuine desire to share and learn. My angst is raised by only a few. I have been a teacher and a professor for many years and blame no one for ignorance. Lord knows we are all ignorant of much. Unfortunately I have few filters when it comes to dealing with foolishness. I didn't even get half-way through this thread before stumbling over some quite offensive posts that no one apparently found any fault with, yet questioning those posts is now offensive? I suppose if you are going to presume to restore another country's heritage, Scotland is as good a place as any to start. The only question is, where will such like-minded X-markers go next to inform the allegedly misinformed: East to Norway? West to Ireland? or perhaps south to France!

I think it is best for me to bow out of discussions. There is much here I would like access to and I don't wish to get banned because I am easily aggravated by ignorant rabble.

I hear what you say, Cyd and many(not all) of the sentiments you voice I am totally at ease with. Nevertheless, there are ways of saying things that we over here have no problem with, but those over there do! Indeed there are some outrageous things said on occasion by those outwith these shores, but on the whole I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, but It does stretch my tolerance more than somewhat! I still have to really think about how I phrase things and constantly edit my posts to try to avoid upset. It usually takes me three times as many words in a post and I still never feel that I say what I really want to say!!!!!But that is the nature of international websites, I suppose. Stick around, your insight is very handy!

[Cyd]

I hear what you say, Cyd and many(not all) of the sentiments you voice I am totally at ease with. Nevertheless, there are ways of saying things that we over here have no problem with, but those over there do! Indeed there are some outrageous things said on occasion by those outwith these shores, but on the whole I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, but It does stretch my tolerance more than somewhat! I still have to really think about how I phrase things and constantly edit my posts to try to avoid upset. It usually takes me three times as many words in a post and I still never feel that I say what I really want to say!!!!!But that is the nature of international websites, I suppose. Stick around, your insight is very handy!

Sir, I hear you. I find myself editing posts to this site more than anything else, which is saying something. I have authoured many scientific papers, legal briefs and patent applications, and few of them require as much revisiting as posts here. The misunderstandings frequently seem incomprehensible and I wonder at times if we are communicating in the same language.

I have to cut back somewhat or I will go mental and surely offend another delicate colonial flower. In fact I possibly just did, but as a Scot I fully expect soon to have a Canadian tell me that isn't how my ancestors would have done it.

Let's say for complaining and correction, this forum is a target rich environment and I have to be more discreet in the future.


(For those who might be offended, this post is an example of British humour and not to be taken too seriously. I can't believe I have to explain a joke...... e.g., see Billy Connolly, Frank Carson or Russell Brand.)

[Jock Scot]

Oh I have in-advertantly trodden on many an international "mine"in my time here!

Things that we say as a matter of course over here causes huge upset over there. "Playing at being a Scot" for one and suggesting that a Canadian/American/wherever who has distant Scottish roots that they are not Scots, for another, can cause apoplexy to some, whilst those thoughts are perfectly valid and natural to many in Scotland! And then, having someone from "wherever" telling the Scots that the kilt is now international property and Scotland have no longer a claim on the kilt! That tests one's diplomacy skills I can tell you!

Yes it is a learning curve for us all, but at times it does seem a one way street to this Scot! The only way to combat these things is to gently point out, again and again and again and then, again, that there are those in Scotland who do not see things as others do in other parts of the world. It can come as a shock to some, even the more enlightened!

On the whole though, I think it is better to gently enlighten members here of another perspective rather than let them assume that they have the monopoly of point of view.