Argyll Hose with Day Wear

[Nathan]

So the pattern emerging is that while most people think Argyll and diced hose with day wear are not, strictly speaking, THCD, it's not an eggregious faux pas either.

This seems to demonstrate once again that the walls of the conventions are somewhat porous and that to use the word "rules" really IS too strong.

[IsaacW]

This seems to demonstrate once again that the walls of the conventions are somewhat porous and that to use the word "rules" really IS too strong.

This sums up sooo much. I think today we like to have clear definitions and guidelines to create a comfort with what we are doing that is already considered odd by many. Unfortunately, such tight definitions do not really exist. FUN DISCUSSION!!!

[Jock Scot]

This sums up sooo much. I think today we like to have clear definitions and guidelines to create a comfort with what we are doing that is already considered odd by many. Unfortunately, such tight definitions do not really exist. FUN DISCUSSION!!!

Bingo! My golly gosh, he's got it! Give the man a cigar!

[IsaacW]

Bingo! My golly gosh, he's got it! Give the man a cigar!

Oooo, yes! I will take a cigar!

IW

[Nathan]

This sums up sooo much. I think today we like to have clear definitions and guidelines to create a comfort with what we are doing that is already considered odd by many. Unfortunately, such tight definitions do not really exist. FUN DISCUSSION!!!

Except that they do exist.

If a person bends one THCD convention but is otherwise dressed according to norms, we can call it personal flair but if someone bends or breaks many, they risk looking like they are in some kind of clownish theatrical costume.

The most conventional choice is the safest choice. Also, only Highlanders ultimately get to decide what stays or goes in the tradition. If Americans insist on keeping a certain style going that is abandoned in Scotland, that won't make it any more THCD.

[IsaacW]

The most convetional choice is the safest choice. Also, only Highlanders ultimately get to decide what stays or goes in the tradition. If Americans insist on keeping a certain style going that is abandoned in Scotland, that won't make it any more THCD.

I do not wish to beat a dead horse, and I acknowledge that this is not common by ANY means, but I do not think I would go so far as state it is a style that is "abandoned" in Scotland. Although it was over a decade ago, and I lived there for only half a year, in all my time, I saw only about a dozen chaps kilted (not counting pipers and soldiers) and one wore them. Additionally, just from this site, the following images have been grabbed...



GRANTED... this is NOT THE NORM, and the 3rd chap is a P/M wearing more of morning dress (although the P/M that was with him in the image was much more in daywear). Anyway... rare, maybe even odd, but not abandoned.

Interestingly, this also makes me think of traditions in other countries. The area of WI that I currently live had a large amount of Norwegian immigration historically. Today, many "traditions" that are maintained are no longer in Norway. Does that negate their importance or even the continuity of it not worthwhile? Oddly, a number of wood carvers from Norway came to a museum just over the border in Iowa to relearn an old form or carving so they could revitalize it in Norway. All this said, this not clothing in the Highlands, argyles, etc. I am not advocating anything. Just thinking aloud.

[Nathan]

I do not wish to beat a dead horse, and I acknowledge that this is not common by ANY means, but I do not think I would go so far as state it is a style that is "abandoned" in Scotland. Although it was over a decade ago, and I lived there for only half a year, in all my time, I saw only about a dozen chaps kilted (not counting pipers and soldiers) and one wore them. Additionally, just from this site, the following images have been grabbed...



GRANTED... this is NOT THE NORM, and the 3rd chap is a P/M wearing more of morning dress (although the P/M that was with him in the image was much more in daywear). Anyway... rare, maybe even odd, but not abandoned.

Interestingly, this also makes me think of traditions in other countries. The area of WI that I currently live had a large amount of Norwegian immigration historically. Today, many "traditions" that are maintained are no longer in Norway. Does that negate their importance or even the continuity of it not worthwhile? Oddly, a number of wood carvers from Norway came to a museum just over the border in Iowa to relearn an old form or carving so they could revitalize it in Norway. All this said, this not clothing in the Highlands, argyles, etc. I am not advocating anything. Just thinking aloud.

Agreed. Argyll hose with day tweed in particular has not been completely abandoned in Scotland.(All but abandoned?) I was just responding to the general sentiment you expressed when you talked about "What we want it to be".

My point is that we all have to remember who the "we" is that decides what is and is not THCD. Namely, the Highland Scots.

Does that mean that if something were to fall out of use in the old country it stops being valid? Not at all. I'm from Cape Breton and we practice forms of dance, play a style of music and indeed sing and speak in some dialects of Gaelic that have been largely lost or changed in Scotland. For this reason the stuff that remains as it was when we brought it from the Western Highlands and Islands is now called "Cape Breton fiddle", "Cape Breton step dancing" and the dialectical differences are referenced as "particularities to the Cape Breton varieties of Scottish Gaelic".

A person who plays dance style pipes in the old style in Cape Breton is practicing an art that was developed in the Highlands of Scotland but he's not a traditional Scottish style piper. They play very differently nowadays.

[IsaacW]

I'm from Cape Breton and we practice forms of dance, play a style of music and indeed sing and speak in some dialects of Gaelic that have been largely lost or changed in Scotland.

Indeed, that is why I knew you would understand my meaning.

"A person who plays dance style pipes in the old style in Cape Breton is practicing an art that was developed in the Highlands of Scotland but he's not a traditional Scottish style piper. They play very differently nowadays."

Indeed, traditions change. The difficult question, and I think what we are all trying to do here, is figure out when a tradition ceases to become a tradition and simple fade into history. In some cases, ethnohistorians might separate "tradition" and "current/modern tradition." Of course this is far too confusing, as that would imply that modern tradition is different from tradition based in the historical (but then, that is the thing of ethnohistorians).

[Nathan]

Indeed, that is why I knew you would understand my meaning.




Indeed, traditions change. The difficult question, and I think what we are all trying to do here, is figure out when a tradition ceases to become a tradition and simple fade into history. In some cases, ethnohistorians might separate "tradition" and "current/modern tradition." Of course this is far too confusing, as that would imply that modern tradition is different from tradition based in the historical (but then, that is the thing of ethnohistorians).

The real question is whether a choice would blend in with the locals and demonstrate your knowledge of the particular shibboleths of the customs or whether the choice would single you out as somehow other than the norm. The hair-splitting academic nomenclature is not really as important as understanding the practical implications.

[IsaacW]

The real question is whether a choice would blend in with the locals and demonstrate your knowledge of the particular shibboleths of the customs or whether the choice would single you out as somehow other than the norm.

The reason I usually wore trousers while in Scotland... the best way to blend in with the locals.