DO you have a favourite level of traditional dress?

[neloon]

Jock said
"I have never been convinced that the kilt was ever worn generally for "dirty" work by Highlanders in times past. The occasional Factor, a few landowners did wear the kilt rather more often, but that was in smart form not for manual work."

The following quotation from a Boston reporter's travel diary of the 1870s adds a little US flavour to that.
"The Highland costume is common in Inverness ; but it is
not a common garb to the people. It is worn mostly by the
gentry in the hunting-season, and is a favorite garb with the
Duke of Edinburgh when in the Highlands. The measure
adopted after the rebellion of the clans in favor of Prince
Charles Edward, prohibiting clan meetings and the clan
dress, struck the death-blow to the most picturesque mascu-
line costume ever in vogue, from Adam to Dr. Mary Walker.
Quite frequently, however, I meet some farmer in the kilt
and stockings ; and there are a few in the Highlands who
wear them the year around. They are not a most comforta-
ble dress in these breezy, wet autumn days ; and are much
less so in the winter, when these hills and moors are covered
with snow, and a keen frosty wind sweeps through the glens. "

Alan

[Alan H]

I actually was intrigued by all the video that I found that I sat at the computer for probably two solid hours, just browsing old videos of Scotland from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. There were quite a few of Aberdeen, for some reason. Outside of Highland Games video's, not a kilt was to be seen...not on a city street, not on a fishing boat, not on a farm, not in a factory, not in a railway station. There was a 1949 film taken of Edinburgh, with two gentlemen in kilts and tweed jackets, quite obviously placed and filmed as advertising and "local color". However, the crowds of people around them....no man had a kilt on. Two solid hours of Scotland-Video-Watching and not ONE kilt outside of a Highland Games.

What I did see a lot of, was....

.....Flat caps. Flat caps were everywhere, from factories to city streets to fishing boats! Just not with kilts!
Boys in short pants and knee socks.
Most of the women in the cities, on the street wore hats. Most of the women working in factories or on a farm did not wear hats.

So if a lass wanted to "dress traditionally Scottish", she should wear a hat when she goes out on the town!

[Alan H]

So as our "more advanced" Scottish mates have been telling us, it's a very rare lad in Scotland that wears a kilt day-to-day, and this fact goes back a LONG time...many years. It's not just a..say, "post-1970's" thing.

And so, in a very roundabout way, this brings me to the conclusion that IN FACT, for the vast majority of kilt-wearers in the period we've been applying to "traditional" rather than "historic", most of you THCD guys are probably about right. There are exceptions, like Mark and his whisky t-shirt, cut-off at the arms at the Inverness MWC, standing there with Jock Scot. That's "traditional", too, as proven by the athletics video's I pointed out, but it's an exception to the "norm". Well, "norm", such as it was...which was quite rare. It's just that what we're thinking of as the "THCD norm" is just as rare in Scotland, going back 50-60 years and more, as it is now.

I had this image that back in the 1920's and 1930's, lots of gents wore kilts, and somehow they just went out of fashion during the next generation. That appears to be completely wrong! They are certainly not "in fashion" in Scotland, now, considering what I saw on my trip last summer!

============

As a complete aside, having spent many, many, many hours-days-weeks-months hauling in fishing nets on an 80 foot vessel, I cannot imagine a LESS appropriate article of clothing than a kilt. It would be completely bonkers for a commercial fisherman of any age in Scotland, in any period, to wear a kilt.

[Jock Scot]

The penny has dropped at last, Alan!

Actually, I do think more kilts are worn for special occasions than used to be in my younger days, for example, very few Burns nights in my youth were black tie events, or even kilted events, the problem is that the kilt wearing knowhow has not kept up with the trend, which causes much eyebrow raising from the traditional kilt wearer, such as me. Why is this? Partly, there is not the ex army input(due to Regimental shrinkage) that there was to keep us in line with their "considered" kilt advice and that has allowed the hire companies' unhelpful advice to gain traction.

[Nathan]

So as our "more advanced" Scottish mates have been telling us, it's a very rare lad in Scotland that wears a kilt day-to-day, and this fact goes back a LONG time...many years. It's not just a..say, "post-1970's" thing.

And so, in a very roundabout way, this brings me to the conclusion that IN FACT, for the vast majority of kilt-wearers in the period we've been applying to "traditional" rather than "historic", most of you THCD guys are probably about right. There are exceptions, like Mark and his whisky t-shirt, cut-off at the arms at the Inverness MWC, standing there with Jock Scot. That's "traditional", too, as proven by the athletics video's I pointed out, but it's an exception to the "norm". Well, "norm", such as it was...which was quite rare. It's just that what we're thinking of as the "THCD norm" is just as rare in Scotland, going back 50-60 years and more, as it is now.

I had this image that back in the 1920's and 1930's, lots of gents wore kilts, and somehow they just went out of fashion during the next generation. That appears to be completely wrong! They are certainly not "in fashion" in Scotland, now, considering what I saw on my trip last summer!

============

As a complete aside, having spent many, many, many hours-days-weeks-months hauling in fishing nets on an 80 foot vessel, I cannot imagine a LESS appropriate article of clothing than a kilt. It would be completely bonkers for a commercial fisherman of any age in Scotland, in any period, to wear a kilt.

I'm not sure all of this has anything to do with the thread. I'd also argue that someone doing athletics is not really in "civilian" attire. There is a whole other aesthetic to people trying to perform athletic feats in the kilt. That is rather unrelated to the THCD question I originally posed.

The things Neloon and Jock point out is that THCD was pretty much worn by the gentry for a long time. I don't think this is news.

[The Q]

I actually was intrigued by all the video that I found that I sat at the computer for probably two solid hours, just browsing old videos of Scotland from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. There were quite a few of Aberdeen, for some reason. Outside of Highland Games video's, not a kilt was to be seen...not on a city street, not on a fishing boat, not on a farm, not in a factory, not in a railway station. There was a 1949 film taken of Edinburgh, with two gentlemen in kilts and tweed jackets, quite obviously placed and filmed as advertising and "local color". However, the crowds of people around them....no man had a kilt on. Two solid hours of Scotland-Video-Watching and not ONE kilt outside of a Highland Games.

What I did see a lot of, was....

.....Flat caps. Flat caps were everywhere, from factories to city streets to fishing boats! Just not with kilts!
Boys in short pants and knee socks.
Most of the women in the cities, on the street wore hats. Most of the women working in factories or on a farm did not wear hats.

So if a lass wanted to "dress traditionally Scottish", she should wear a hat when she goes out on the town!

Aberdeen is not really the highlands so the Kilt would not have been a traditional form of dress in that area anyway and at that time it was mainly known for fishing so as Alan H says it wouldn't be practicable. On top of that kilts by the time of film, had long become an expensive hand made Item and 90% of those in the film of those days would have been lucky to have 2 pairs of trousers. One for Sunday best and one for work.
Thinking about it, I Had to wear shorts at primary school in the 1960s, it was a big thing to go to Secondary school and be able to get my first pair of long trousers. And I only had two pairs of long trousers, 1 for best one for work /school, until I joined the RAF in 1976.

As for ladies hats, a woman would be barred form church for not wearing a hat, I believe there is a biblical quotation to support that, but my old knowledge of the bible is disappearing away with my hair.

[Alan H]

Gee, Nathan, you should be happy with my posts! I mean, I just wrote that I think you guys are probably more-or-less spot-on with what you're doing with "THCD". I used to think you were all so focused on one little aspect of it all, just the "dressy stuff" and so pretty much stayed away. Now, after looking at a couple of hours of old video, I'm changing my mind. The "regular guy" in Scotland, even going back to the 1930's didn't wear a kilt. More-or-less only the gentry wore this kit. So you're all trying to dress like the gentry. OK, well... It appears that you're succeeding!

You also make a good point. "THCD" is a subset of "traditional". So we could say that what a highland athlete or a highland dancer wears is "traditional", as in it's something that's been worn for a long time and hasn't changed much.. but it's not THCD. Seems reasonable....

EDIT:

Taking this a step further....this picture:



with it's lovely and quite traditional kilt doesn't really qualify as "THCD" because I can't imagine Scottish Gentry in the 1930's, 40's 50's or 60's wearing a kilt with, say, no jacket or without a tie, or with their sleeves rolled up. -- Jock Scots picture at Inverness with Mark, notwithstanding!

[Alan H]

The penny has dropped at last, Alan!

Actually, I do think more kilts are worn for special occasions than used to be in my younger days, for example, very few Burns nights in my youth were black tie events, or even kilted events, the problem is that the kilt wearing knowhow has not kept up with the trend, which causes much eyebrow raising from the traditional kilt wearer, such as me. Why is this? Partly, there is not the ex army input(due to Regimental shrinkage) that there was to keep us in line with their "considered" kilt advice and that has allowed the hire companies' unhelpful advice to gain traction.

I'm laughing, here. I'd understood the idea that "nowadays" Scots don't wear kilts out and about, generally. So I was not surprised last summer to see absolutely zero on anybody outside of a Highland Games but you, Alex, myself, and a couple of pipers busking in Edinburgh. However, I was somehow under the impression that if we were to go back to the 1930's or 1940's, they'd be much more in evidence. Well..that's obviously completely wrong.

.....which you've probably been saying for five years here on the forum, but then just because I READ something doesn't necessarily mean that it makes it past the filters installed right behind my eyeballs, before the message lodges in my brain!

[Jock Scot]

Gee, Nathan, you should be happy with my posts! I mean, I just wrote that I think you guys are probably more-or-less spot-on with what you're doing with "THCD". I used to think you were all so focused on one little aspect of it all, just the "dressy stuff" and so pretty much stayed away. Now, after looking at a couple of hours of old video, I'm changing my mind. The "regular guy" in Scotland, even going back to the 1930's didn't wear a kilt. More-or-less only the gentry wore this kit. So you're all trying to dress like the gentry. OK, well... It appears that you're succeeding!

You also make a good point. "THCD" is a subset of "traditional". So we could say that what a highland athlete or a highland dancer wears is "traditional", as in it's something that's been worn for a long time and hasn't changed much.. but it's not THCD. Seems reasonable....

EDIT:

Taking this a step further....this picture:



with it's lovely and quite traditional kilt doesn't really qualify as "THCD" because I can't imagine Scottish Gentry in the 1930's, 40's 50's or 60's wearing a kilt with, say, no jacket or without a tie, or with their sleeves rolled up. -- Jock Scots picture at Inverness with Mark, notwithstanding!

I have lost count of the times that I have said on this website; " THCD is NOT all about tweeds, cromachs, balmorals and brogues." Yes many do think so, but that is quite incorrect. In my youth I was surrounded by 6 kilt wearing uncles, plus a kilt wearing father and kilt wearing Grandfather AND assorted kilt wearing cousins and friends and the shirt sleeve, no tie and no shoes was a common sight when the weather was nice, but the Scottish Highlands is a wild and secluded place to those that are familiar with it---it still is---so no one saw/sees that side of traditional kilt attire. We must also remember nearly everyone wore ties and jackets in public 30/40/50 years ago. I do concede whilst there is a private side of THCD there was/is also the public side of THCD too with the tweeds etc.. To coin a phrase here kilts and kilt attire whilst having significant traditions is to us traditionalists, "just clothes" too. I have absolutely no hesitation in calling shirt sleeves and no tie, THCD, if that style fits the occasion.

[Alan H]

Jock, are you telling us all that you traipsed around the countryside, willy-nilly in your youth, with NO SHOES AND SOCKS ON?

**horrors**



Actually one of the judges at the Inverary Games last summer would have passed muster with the strictest THCD tweed adherent, here on XMTS in the morning. As it got damned HOT in the afternoon, his shirt sleeves ( a proper tattersall shirt, I actually thought of this forum when I saw it) got rolled up, the tweed vest disappeared, the wool balmoral was somehow misplaced for a straw hat, his tie was loosened, and several bottles of cold cider somehow disappeared.

All entirely traditional and civilian I am sure!