Dipping flags at ceremonies

[duke_19_62]

On the US Memorial Day this year with the Scottish American Military Society (SAMS), I served as part of a Color Guard at several wreath layings at the various memorials around Washington, DC. We used the US Flag, the Saltire, and the flags of each of the US Armed Forces: US Army, USMC, US Navy, USAF and US Coast Guard. During the playing of Taps all the flags but the US Flag were dipped in salute. After the first instance, I started a discussion. I believe, as a National Color, the Saltire also should not have been dipped. The argument given is we (SAMS), are an American organization made up of American Veterans in the USA, only the US Flag is dipped. I still feel that, being a National Flag (not looking to start a political discussion about independence, etc), the same argument applies to the Saltire. I look forward to your input.

[Father Bill]

I too will be interested in the responses from an American point of view. I think you will find that custom varies among nations though, so please understand that's what good for the goose is not necessarily good for the duck.

[cessna152towser]

Would be very interested to hear others views on this, from both North America and Europe.
My perception as a Scot is that the Saltire is my National Flag and my nationality is Scottish.
I would never fly the Union Jack here in Scotland though I am proud to raise it on the flagpole of the aviation museum across the border in the north of England where I do some volunteering, as it represents in my view, not a national flag, but a shared history, our shared Monarch and a shared interest in the defence of the islands which we share with our neighbours. I dislike intensely seeing my country being referred to as "united kingdom" as this is simply a term which covers mutual co-operation between neighbouring nations, same as "european union".
Yet I've noticed on fora that members living in England often choose to identify their location as "uk" rather than "England", also when I cross the border into England I am immediately made aware of entering a different country by the array of Union Jacks flying just inside the English Border in much the same way as you see them when you cross from Eire into Northern Ireland. I would have expected to see the St. George flag in England much more, just as one sees plenty of Saltires in Scotland, yet the St. George flag seems relatively rare in England compared to Union Jacks. By the way there is a little St. George flag on the flagpole of the church on my model railway here in Scotland, flown out of respect to the friend from whom I inherited the model church and who originallly chose this flag for his own reasons.

[Jock Scot]

Unlike Alex, I am more than happy with the Union flag. To be clear here I am not altogether happy to be represented by the European Union flag though.

[Dileasgubas]

From the Canadian government protocol site: "Dipping a carried flag means lowering it from a vertical position to one which is, variously 45 degrees from the horizontal, or, even further, touching the ground.
The national flag, when carried, is never dipped or lowered to the ground."

I could find no mention about dipping other national flags but my sense is that national flags do not get dipped under any circumstances.

[MacEanruig]

I suspect that you could apply the same etiquette outlined within the UK Flag Institute's "Flying Flags in the United Kingdom" on page five to the Scottish Saltire. Although it does not specifically mention dipping or lowering at a memorial, you would be correct I believe in lowering the flag as described for salutes.

"When passing the person taking the salute the flag should be lowered
so that the staff is horizontal. This can be done by simply lowering the staff
straight ahead, or by lowering the staff towards the person taking the salute
and then swinging it round to straight ahead. All the movements should be
slow and dignified. After the salute, the flag should be raised again."

It appears that British flag etiquette is almost identical in respect to the US flag etiquette procedures.

[ctbuchanan]

The United States Code covers all flag etiquette for the US Flag.

http://www.legion.org/flag/code

It specifies that during peacetime the flags of all nations should be equal to but never superior to the US Flag in place or position, and treated the same.

One sections says: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

Notice that the remarks exclude flags of other nations which means that they should not be dipped. The Saltire is the national flag of Scotland and therefore should be held at an equal height to the US flag at all times.

[Holcombe Thomas]

So if "UK" or "United Kingdom" are sometimes not the best terms, are Britain or Great Britain better? It seems rather a long list to say "Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and England," when referring to the combined entity, but I'd rather avoid causing any hard feelings. Some years ago, as a rather more unenlightened American than I am today, a dear Welsh friend educated me about referring to England when I meant the whole four countries. Haven't made that mistake since!

Thanks and sorry for the thread drift.

Holcombe

[The Q]

I agree with Jock over the use of the Union flag as it is the flag of the Union! England Ireland ÀND Scotland and whilst the Welsh flag is not incorporated into the Union flag it does represent them as well.

The official title is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

In United kingdom flag etiquette, the Sovereign's flag is first (and never dipped or temporarily lowered as it indicates they are on the premises) the Union flag is next, followed by the individual and equal flags England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

All countries flags should be the same size foreign and UK.

If you go further south than the borders you will more flags of St George which can quite correctly be flown on a church /kirk in Scotland if it is dedicated to St George.
Incidentally on my model railway the church is dedicated to St James stjamesludgershall.com
But up the road here in Norfolk is the flag of St Andrew on a church.

Back to dipping flags I think there is a slight confusion on words, dipping a flag is when marching past a significant person or site.
Lowering a flag to half mast, is what is done when there is a significant death or temporarily during the minute's silence and playing of the last post.
ALL flags except the Sovereigns should be lowered to half mast together if possible or in order of precedence if not.
Guess who's had to research this as I regularly did this in the military and now for a couple of organisations.

[cessna152towser]

So if "UK" or "United Kingdom" are sometimes not the best terms, are Britain or Great Britain better?

Yes. Geographically, Scotland is a nation of the British Isles and most of Scotland including the part where I live is situated on the largest island Great Britain.
When I am buying something on line and there is a drop down country menu I look first for Scotland, then Great Britain then British Isles. If none of these are there I usually abort the purchase as I regard "united kingdom" as wrong as the term stands for a grouping of four nations who share and co-operate in many ways, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Much the same as grouping Netherlands, Holland and Luxembourg as "benelux" or France and Germany as "european union" If the vendors are too lazy to list my country individually as a destination to which they will dispatch they don't deserve my business.

If you go further south than the borders you will more flags of St George which can quite correctly be flown on a church /kirk in Scotland if it is dedicated to St George.
Incidentally on my model railway the church is dedicated to St James stjamesludgershall.com
But up the road here in Norfolk is the flag of St Andrew on a church.

Thanks, that's very helpful. I'd often wondered why my late friend opted for the St. George flag on the model church which I inherited.