Dipping flags at ceremonies

[ASinclair]

I'm a bit confused about what we mean by 'national' flags. The French tricolor, the Canadian Maple Flag, and the Stars and Stripes of the USA are national flags.

Isn't the national flag of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland the British Union flag?

Didn't the recent vote, that we don't talk about, settle that?

[cessna152towser]

Isn't the national flag of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland the British Union flag?

No.
Much as I respect the Union Jack and things it stands for such as our Queen, our shared islands and our shared military, I certainly do NOT consider it to be the national flag of my country Scotland.
As I have already said I am proud to fly the Union Jack when I'm over the border at the air museum in England.
Sadly the Union Jack has become tainted in Scotland by its mis-appropriation as the flag of a certain soccer club and by religious bigotry which is why I would never raise it in Scotland.

[ctbuchanan]

It is my understanding that the United Kingdom is comprised of four constituent countries, Scotland being one of them.

Anyway - all their national websites state that the Saltire is their National Flag.

http://www.scottishflagtrust.com/home

[duke_19_62]

This is the best photo of the day I could find to illustrate. The bugler at the far right is playing Taps. The flags (l-r), United States, Saltire, US Army, US Marine Corps, US Navy, US Air Force, US Coast Guard. The United States flag is held upright, all others lowered to approximately a 45 degree angle.

[Superdan]

seems to me that the Saltaire is being improperly regarded as just another service flag.

[cessna152towser]

during peacetime the flags of all nations should be equal to but never superior to the US Flag in place or position, and treated the same.

I agree with the OP and with CTBuchanan and Superdan above.
It seems to me also that if USA flag etiquette suggests that national flags of other countries be treated the same then the Stars and Stripes and the Saltire should both be dipped or not dipped as appropriate.
Edited to add:- The error in the Saltire's treatment is understandable and causes me no offence.
My Canadian cousins and my American friends sometimes don't fully grasp the sense of national pride of what it means to be Scottish in a situation where we have four small Nations sharing a small area of land in comparison to the vast Provinces of Canada and States of USA. Even here we are ambivalent about it. My perception is that most but not all of us Scots identify as Scottish or as Scottish and British rather than "united kingdom" whereas our English friends tend to identify themselves as resident in "united kingdom" rather than in England and as British rather than English.

[Pleater]

Officially Scotland is a country and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a nation.

England is a country. I am English by birth but my nationality is British. Where I am from is Yorkshire.

There is the Principality of Wales - which is a country too, and the Prince of Wales swears fealty to the Monarch, who is British.

Our Queen is monarch of the United Kingdom, the countries of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but she is, when North of the Boarder, perhaps more correctly Elizabeth Queen of Scots, the people not the land - because that is how it is.

I believe that the Queen has some sixteen or even more titles to describe her position in the various places where she reigns - there are Civil Servants who spend time at the office keeping such things sorted out.

Where the Saltire is being used outwith the United Kingdom there could be difficulties in proper protocol depending on how it is being used. In the USA it could perhaps be argued that it is best to treat it in the same way as any of the American State flags as that is the closest equivalent - but as long as things are done with proper decorum and due dignity is preserved for all involved it should be fine, I hope.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[cessna152towser]

As you see from the contrasting comments from myself and from Pleater you will get a different view as to the appropriate treatment of the Saltire depending on who you ask.
There was an interesting article on the BBC website some time back entitled "How British is Britain" about whether people identified themselves as British, English, Scottish or Welsh when asked the question of their national identity in the 2011 Britain wide census.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24302914
Contrary to what I might have expected, there are strong pockets of English and Welsh, rather than British, national identity in some areas in England and Wales just as there is a strong sense of Scottish national identity in many people living in Scotland.

Top five (%)
English identity
Castle Point 77.5
Knowsley 77.0
Ashfield 76.1
Cannock Chase 76.0
Hartlepool 75.8

Welsh identity
Rhondda Cynon Taf 73.3
Merthyr Tydfil 73.2
Blaenau Gwent 72.4
Neath Port Talbot 71.8
Caerphilly 71.2

Scottish identity
W Dunbartonshire 72.0
N Lanarkshire 71.6
East Ayrshire 70.6
Inverclyde 69.9
Eilean Siar 69.2

[Peter Crowe]

The Saltire Cross of St Andrew (also the St. George's Cross, and the St. Patrick's Saltire Cross) are as I understand it under UK Flag protocol only flown in a secondary position when the Union Flag/Jack is also being flown, otherwise they may be properly flown in place of the Union Flag. I am unclear on the status of the Green and White Dragon Flag of Wales in this regard, as it was only formally adopted in the earlier 20th century.

For Example, British Embassies around the world fly the St. Andrew's Cross on November 30th in place of the Union Flag.

The rules around UK Flags on land are primarily conventions established by custom, however at sea these carry the full force of law and are enforced by the Admiralty (The Ministry of Defence (Navy) since 1964). There are very clear rules about what vessels may fly, when and from where, with the Red Ensign being the proper ensign for merchant vessels and private boats, the White Ensign for commissioned warships of the Royal Navy, and the Blue Ensign on Merchant Ships and private small craft where the owner/skipper holds an Admiralty Warrant to do so, in the case of MN vessels the Master must hold the rank of Commander RNR. Other government vessels both civil and military fly a defaced Blue Ensign with the emblem proper to the department/branch on the fly. All ensigns have the Union Flag in the canton.

Recently there has been a move to re-establish the maritime use of the Scottish Red Ensign with a darker blue St. Andrews cross in the canton, but this is unofficial, probably illegal, although this historic Ensign was that in use by the Royal Scots Navy in the XVII century and up to 1707. There is currently a petition asking the Scottish Parliament to seek Admiralty permission for small craft to be permitted to use this ensign within UK waters. Incidentally up until the mid-19th century the Red Ensign was the Ensign of the Senior Squadron of the Royal Navy as well as the Merchant Ensign.

The flags on my avatar is the 'House Flag' of the former Glen Line Ltd. (Glen and Shire Lines) of London, a subsidiary company of Alfred Holt's Blue Funnel Line (later it all came under the umbrella of Ocean Fleets Ltd) of Liverpool with which my father spent his career at sea as a Master Mariner.

[cessna152towser]

Our Council Offices fly the Saltire on most days of the year, though on the Queen's Birthday or other Royal Event is replaced by the Union Jack.
There is also the Armed Forces Day flag which has been flying from Council Headquarters in place of the Saltire during the week leading up to Armed Forces Day on Saturday 27th June.