Brogues, boots, what is casual? What is dressy?

[Taskr]

AHAAA! It took a while to get there, but I thought that might be the problem. Its not a new one and I can recognise the symptoms pretty well now!

It may help you to understand kilt attire better if you understand two basic things. Firstly you need to divorce American terminology from British and secondly you need to understand that there are no exact comparisons between dress definitions of kilt attire and saxon wear. A tad confusing for a start, but as many here have found out to their benefit, it does help one no end to understand the finer points of kilt attire.

Exactly!!! The 10 looks threads and a few others have been excellent guides. Yet the topic of shoes is not necessarily well covered in pictures, as the OP notes. For myself, I have basically decided that if it looks like it belongs under a suit and I can give them a good shine, then the shoes fit under the kilt for business and formal dress. These include an oxblood brogue and black toe-cap. I've seen patent leather on others for formal in the kilt. Looks sharp, just not for me. I wear the black toe-cap with my tux, too; parade gloss polished.

[Father Bill]

Aye, and that shine is an important requirement.

[Livonian]

Admittedly, the following is a pretty strict traditionalistic view, and is applicable to Saxon dress... But, it's important to understand the codes that most of us supposedly follow in Saxon dress to perhaps better understand the differences between it and Highland dress. Pictures are all from Allen Edmonds because they make a lot of styles and it's best to use all one maker for examples to highlight the differences in style, not the brand's design. If a shoe doesn't appear here, it's for good reason: Either I truncated it for brevity (like all the styles of Blucher or Derby), or it's not a traditional style of shoe for smart Saxon dress (most slip-on shoes, sneakers, and workman's footwear).

Opera pumps (aka court shoes): Looks like a patent leather pump with a small grosgrain bow over the instep. Extremely formal and largely extinct, having been overtaken by the:

Cap-Toe Oxford (http://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/me...enue&start=1): The correct shoe for almost any smart dressing (especially if highly polished). An Oxford is not just any lace-up shoe, but one with closed facings (facings being the bits where the eyelets are, closed meaning they don't really open up much and are joined at the bottom).

Medallion Oxford (http://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/me...r=1055#start=3) An oxford with no cap-toe, but a brogued (perforated) medallion (design) on the toe. The facing style here is an Adelaide facing, as opposed to the Balmoral facings in the last example.

Semi-Brogue (http://www.allenedmonds.com/strand-c...5_color=1626): A cap-toe Oxford shoe with broguing (the perforated patterns on the toe and seams). A wee bit less formal due to the presence of broguing (perforation) and gimping (serrated edges on some pieces of leather)

Full Brogue(http://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/me...215_color=6202) Technically a casual shoe, but accepted with country-style (tweed, patch pockets) suits.

Plain-toe Blucher (http://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/me...sz=18&start=67) Technically a more casual shoe than a closed-face brogue. Typically accepted with odd jacket and trousers (a coat and trousers which complement each other, but are not a suit). "Blucher" refers to the style of facing, which in this case is a type of open facing, meaning the two sides of the facings are separate and can open up quite a bit. As a testament to how much of a shoe geek you have to be to sort out all the different facing styles and their names, even the manufacturer mis-indentifies this shoe as a Derby.

Plain-toe Derby (http://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/co...015_color=3016) Similar in formality and application to the Plain-toe Blucher, but with Derby facings.

From then on, the formality decreases with the amount of broguing and other decoration until we reach the:

Split-toe Blucher: (http://www.allenedmonds.com/shoes/me...sz=18&start=53) Which is pretty darned casual, and something of a conundrum: passes as a "dress shoe" to most, but is, in fact, one of the most casual lace-up shoes around

Loafer (Do I really need an example?) Very casual. If worn with a jacket at all, the jacket should be definitely a casual jacket (like a sportscoat... a blazer would even be a bit too formal, strictly speaking) and possibly a bit battered from many admirable years of service above a pair of bluchers or brogues. Most at home with stuff like sweaters, which, like the loafer, are relaxation clothes.

And last, but certainly not least, the shoe that (at least in the US) nobody knows what to do with:

The Gunboat Brogue aka Longwing Blucher (http://www.allenedmonds.com/macneil-...=18&start=20): Worn with suits and business dress in the US for some time, the gunboat is accepted as a valid choice with such attire. Strictly speaking, the open facings, heavy broguing, chunky lasts, and double soles make it a workhorse casual shoe. In the US, it's your choice, but it is seen as a conservative, perhaps even stodgy choice of shoe.

Again, the above is an extremely strict, old-school, and mostly extinct breakdown, but it should hopefully serve to establish what all the terms mean, and what shoes are theoretically casual, dressy, or formal. You'll also note that the terms for different facing styles can help explain some linguistic differences between members, although it will always baffle me that virtually any lace-up shoe is called an Oxford, sometimes even if said shoe is really a Derby, Blucher, or even a sneaker. Dress boots follow the same hierarchy based on facing style, last slimness, and embellishment (although they are a somewhat daring choice)

Overall, Highland dress is:

1. Much more brogue-friendly, with brogues being often worn with the equivalent of a smart suit or even the equivalent of Morning Dress.
2. Much less boot-friendly (at least nowadays), with boots really only being seen in old portraits and photographs.

Postcript: This is what happens when you have too much time on your hands and take perhaps too much interest in clothes.

[Reiver]

... and also to know that Canadian English isn't the same as American.

From my experience wit Scot's regiments Scot's English isn't like English English either.

[Wareyin]

<snipped for brevity>

Again, the above is an extremely strict, old-school, and mostly extinct breakdown, but it should hopefully serve to establish what all the terms mean, and what shoes are theoretically casual, dressy, or formal. You'll also note that the terms for different facing styles can help explain some linguistic differences between members, although it will always baffle me that virtually any lace-up shoe is called an Oxford, sometimes even if said shoe is really a Derby, Blucher, or even a sneaker. Dress boots follow the same hierarchy based on facing style, last slimness, and embellishment (although they are a somewhat daring choice)

Overall, Highland dress is:

1. Much more brogue-friendly, with brogues being often worn with the equivalent of a smart suit or even the equivalent of Morning Dress.
2. Much less boot-friendly (at least nowadays), with boots really only being seen in old portraits and photographs.

Postcript: This is what happens when you have too much time on your hands and take perhaps too much interest in clothes.

This was quite an interesting post. First of all, thank you for your effort. That said, I don't really understand the difference between a Derby and a Blucher. I think I will stick with my (obviously limited) understanding, and wear my black wingtips any time I am dressing up.

[Livonian]

This was quite an interesting post. First of all, thank you for your effort. That said, I don't really understand the difference between a Derby and a Blucher. I think I will stick with my (obviously limited) understanding, and wear my black wingtips any time I am dressing up.

Blucher facings consist of two vaguely L-shaped tabs of leather sitting more or less atop the upper, which (at least in a plain-toe blucher), is one piece of leather. The seams of Blucher facings do not run the height of the shoe, and legend has it that the Prussian military officer of the same name designed the shoe this way with the intention of it being relatively waterproof, thus no seams low on the shoe.

Derby facings consist of one piece of leather (ideally... some mfgs. use two, joined at the heel), which bisect the shoe front to back, and have a curved seam running the height of the shoe, down to the welt.

As for wearing wingtip brogues with a suit, it's now seen as perfectly acceptable, provided the brogues are smart in design. I have been known to do exactly this. That said, I'd say that for black tie or morning dress, a brogue of any kind is completely out of its element.

[Wareyin]

Blucher facings consist of two vaguely L-shaped tabs of leather sitting more or less atop the upper, which (at least in a plain-toe blucher), is one piece of leather. The seams of Blucher facings do not run the height of the shoe, and legend has it that the Prussian military officer of the same name designed the shoe this way with the intention of it being relatively waterproof, thus no seams low on the shoe.

Derby facings consist of one piece of leather (ideally... some mfgs. use two, joined at the heel), which bisect the shoe front to back, and have a curved seam running the height of the shoe, down to the welt.

As for wearing wingtip brogues with a suit, it's now seen as perfectly acceptable, provided the brogues are smart in design. I have been known to do exactly this. That said, I'd say that for black tie or morning dress, a brogue of any kind is completely out of its element.

Thank you for the explanation.

I do not own a suit, so I will worry about what to wear with one at another time.

With a kilt, what do you mean with morning dress? I wore my pair of black wingtips to an evening wedding, with a Black Argyll Silver Button jacket and 5 button waistcoat, and was told several times that I was the best dressed there. Of course, I was the only one kilted in the room.

[Livonian]

In Saxon dress, morning dress is the most formal daylight-hours dress code, calling for a cutaway coat, double-breasted vest, and striped trousers. Highland equivalent is a black Argyll with silver buttons and matching vest. If I'm not mistaken, polished brogues would be acceptable with this, but I'm sure one of our Scottish contributors can chime in on this one to clear any confusion.