Hands off our kilts: Scots bid to copyright their national dress

[neloon]

Perhaps, Jock, you and I (and, therefore, most other Scots) are not so concerned as commercial kiltmakers about where the product is made or even about its "quality" (beyond hoping that anything that is made should be made well) but rather more about its "authenticity". That is what the designation Traditional Speciality Guaranteed seeks to achieve. I realise that brings us back to a legal definition of "authentic" but that should not be impossible especially if those with a vested commercial interest were excluded from the discussion. (I, personally, would not regard some of Howie Nicholsby's creations as authentic, however marketable they might be.)
Alan

[Jock Scot]

Exactly so Alan.

[figheadair]

Agreed. I'm definitely with you on slme of Howie Nicholsby's creations.

[Steve Ashton]

A traditional speciality guaranteed (TSG) item is defined in the regulations as - An agricultural product intended for human consumption or foodstuff with a traditional composition.

And I'm afraid that we are right back to where we have always been. We have never been able to define "kilt" or "traditional" in a way that can be agreed upon even by the members of this forum. It always seems to come down to the "I know it when I see it" type of thinking.

You can't even define what it is you are trying to protect.

But I have been in business for more than a week and I believe that competition is good. It is good for the producer as it allows someone to carve out their niche in the market. It is good for the marketplace as it promotes innovation and creative thinking. It is good for the consumer as it fosters reasonable prices.

It is my personal belief that protectionism has historically resulted in monopolistic ownership, higher prices. and fewer controls on quality.

So perhaps it is best if I bow back out of this discussion.

[The Q]

As long as the "trade description" is correct, for the country of origin and method of manufacture, I do not think there is a problem.

Our preference for an 8 yard hand sewn kilt is the same as wanting a Savile Row suit. Nice but few other than the rich or real enthusiast can afford ( most of us here come under the enthusiast category sacrificing other spending for the kilt)

The 8 yard kilt PV machine made, is the modern off the peg suit which most can afford if they wish.

The gold brothers / lidl 4 yarder is the Primark / cheap far eastern mass produced suit for those short of money or wanting something to use but could be thrown away if damaged.

All have their place, as long as the customer knows what they're getting.

[Leprechaun 91]

... as long as the customer knows what they're getting.

I think that is the real issue. "Designed in Scotland" and "Authentic Woven Tartan" are deceptive terms. "Acrylic Wool" is also one that chaps my hide. The masses who buy the "designed in Scotland" version of "The Kilt" are often completely oblivious to the fact that they are buying a "Kilt" made in Pakistan. (I add quotes around Kilt here because those wishing to "protect" the garment would not , I believe, allow the Pakistani kilts to be called so.) How many shoppes along the Royal Mile, High Street, or across Scotland would lose serious market share if they could no longer peddle these self same kilts the industry is reiling against?

Be honest in your representations. Offer choices, and sell what the custome will buy for the price they will (can) pay.

[Katia]

Hmm, I'm not sure I would agree with you there Katia. "Kilt" is a more generic description, and not all kilts are Scottish but "Scottish kilts" are, or should be. The kilts from Pakistan are clearly kilts but equally clearly not Scottish kilts. They are also "tartan", though that may be a bigger stretch, so not all tartan kilts are Scottish, either. And you also distinguish between Scottish kilts and Irish kilts, which is as it should be.

I'm inclined to agree with Alan, I think the issue will be raised again and I think it has further to run yet - it took a long time to get Stilton Cheese protected, so I wouldn't expect a rapid conclusion.

As always, only my opinion, you may well differ.

I don't know. Their issue seems to be with poorly-made junk, not well-made kilts that just happen to not have been sewn in Scotland. As others have said, some of the junk is indeed made in fair Alba.

Mr Nicholsby, 29, said: "This campaign has come about through years of frustration. I grew tired of seeing poor quality kilts selling in shops on the high street for £20 and calling themselves Scottish kilts.

"They look terrible – it's like someone wearing a dishcloth. People should feel pride in wearing a real Scottish kilt, but people are being put off kilts completely because the cheap ones look so bad. The PDO is something we need to protect our industry because it's under siege."


The Scottish Nationalist Party, MEP Alyn Smith said: "What's happening is that tacky shops have started to sell cheap kilts that they are prefixing with the word Scottish. They are essentially tartan skirts imported from India and China. They look crap and are an embarrassment to our culture and our country.


"A real Scottish kilt is like a designer item these days; I see more and more men wearing them. It's a quality item and a proper one will cost upwards of £150. These £20 things are degrading our national dress."


Meanwhile, as I said before, I'm not sure the problem is solved by disallowing the word "Scottish," because I can't recall the last time I've actually heard someone use the moniker "Scottish kilt." This means both that actually-made-in-Scotland kilts don't receive that designator in most circumstances I've seen, and also that just because it doesn't say *Scottish* kilt doesn't mean people won't make assumptions. (And when someone asks Bob Yahoo about his piece-of-crap kiltish-thing {be it low-quality acrylic, actually a women's kilted skirt, or a piece of "plaid" fabric he bought and is wearing sarong style}, he's going to say with much pride, "oh, it's Scottish, don't you know?")

You know, I had often wondered why I'm so often asked "Are you Irish?" instead of "Are you Scottish?" This is a wonderful theory to explain it.

I always imagined it is also because the Irish culture is a lot more visible-- I can name for you several "classic" Irish groups-- The Chieftains, Leahy, Cherish The Ladies, Altan, the Irish Rovers, Van Morrison, As well as those not so classic-- Dropkick Murphys, Flogging Molly, Celtic Woman, The Corrs, U2, Enya, etc. Scottish? Er... Runrig... Dougie MacLean... Natalie MacMaster is more Cape Breton, but we'll put it in the category... Alasdair Fraser... Red Hot Chilli Pipers...

Then there's Riverdance... who can you name in Scottish dance-- either Highland or country-- who is that famous? There's St. Patrick's Day, and sorry, but St. Andrew's Day and Tartan Day can't compare.

Etc.

Add to that that a lot of Scottish musicians and dancers take advantage of St. Patrick's Day*.

Anyone not paying attention*-- and a lot of people don't-- is going to get confused. Especially since a lot of people haven't much grasp on the difference between Scotland and Ireland anyway.

*I was once talking with a friend while getting ready to go out and dance with the local pipe band at the pubs on St. Patrick's Day. It was firmly established during the conversation that we were a *Scottish* group. He was at one of the bars we went to, and I later heard him describing it to someone else: "and then these Irish dancers came in..." You just can't make some people understand.

So every kilt that leaves my shop has a little Hang Tag attached to it.

I like this a lot.

[neloon]

I always imagined it is also because the Irish culture is a lot more visible-- I can name for you several "classic" Irish groups-- The Chieftains, Leahy, Cherish The Ladies, Altan, the Irish Rovers, Van Morrison, As well as those not so classic-- Dropkick Murphys, Flogging Molly, Celtic Woman, The Corrs, U2, Enya, etc. Scottish? Er... Runrig... Dougie MacLean... Natalie MacMaster is more Cape Breton, but we'll put it in the category... Alasdair Fraser... Red Hot Chilli Pipers...
Anyone not paying attention-- and a lot of people don't-- is going to get confused. Especially since a lot of people haven't much grasp on the difference between Scotland and Ireland anyway.

Your comments are helpful to us Scots in presenting a US perspective on things. I note that, in your list of "classic" Irish groups, half are actually US/Canadian as are Dropkick Murphys and Flogging Molly. Scottish groups (and you omit especially Wolfstone and Capercaillie**) tend to stay at home and I know of no US bands that are primarily "Scottish". Maybe the reluctance of Scottish bands* to tour the US is simply lack of sufficient audience numbers - despite what membership of this site might suggest, only about 1.7% of US citizens regard themselves as having Scottish roots as against 10.9% who claim Irish descent. This disproportion may also be a factor in the Irish/Scottish confusion. In addition, there is the considerable immigration from Ulster where people regard themselves as Irish on some days of the week and Scots on others!
What is perhaps surprising is the very slender penetration of Irish music and dance into Scotland despite the considerable immigration over the last two centuries. Even around Glasgow there is very little Irish dancing and less than 1% of Scots think of themselves as being of recent Irish descent when the truth is probably nearer 15%.
*Remember that most Scottish bands are only instrumental and play for ceilidhs for which there is constant work in Scotland and very little abroad. e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kgM3oPCZFM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmhUwpNFj8
(Do you recognise that last dance, Katia?)
**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyxOh6MO0dI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1kVx1pdDBs
And, specially for Julia Elliot,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvNk-Pd5auc

Alan

[Father Bill]

We run into this in the church as well. Whenever I look at material about "Celtic Spirituality" it turns out that they mean "Irish" not "Celtic." I would imagine that Scots have some amount of spirituality too.

[The Wizard of BC]

Yea, Bill, I find the use of the word "celtic" as if it were a culture or something like a country to be most annoying.

Celtic means you speak one of the Celtic Languages. These languages are some of the oldest in Europe and span many thousands of years. The people who speak or spoke one of the Celtic languages had many different and varied cultures. (The intertwinned knotwork with animals in it, and the circles of standing stones are from totally different cultures many thousands of years apart. They never met.)

Using the word celtic to mean something like a single culture or something similar to a nationality is about like saying "I am English because I can speak English"."