Hands off our kilts: Scots bid to copyright their national dress

[Jock Scot]

The issue, as I see it, is twofold...

1) Patrons who are more easily deceived b/c they arent fully educated on highland wear (which is where Xmarks is an asset)

2) Companies that value high margins and a quick buck over doing it "properly".

I wholeheartedly agree with you Rocky. Have you any solutions, given your intimate knowledge of the trade?

[RockyR]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Rocky. Have you any solutions, given your intimate knowledge of the trade?

Not really... governmental regulation of phrases would only go "so far" and another phrase could pop up in its place "dress kilt" "proper kilt" "celtic kilt" "real kilt", "authentic kilt", etc.

It would be an exercise in trying to police human behavior... 1) educate those with less knowledge as to heritage and cultural issues (who honestly may not care to be educated) and 2) force retailers to act ethically and in the best interest of their culture and the customer, not their own wallet.

Sarcastically and with tongue firmly in cheek, I say "good luck"...

As a retailer myself, I can only act the way I wish all retailers would act (and some honestly DO act). I would like to stress that I am not on a "high horse" as there are MANY (dare I say most?) retailers who are ethical and honest, but there are some less than savory characters in this market IMHO.

[Jock Scot]

Not really... governmental regulation of phrases would only go "so far" and another phrase could pop up in its place "dress kilt" "proper kilt" "celtic kilt" "real kilt", "authentic kilt", etc.

It would be an exercise in trying to police human behavior... 1) educate those with less knowledge as to heritage and cultural issues (who honestly may not care to be educated) and 2) force retailers to act ethically and in the best interest of their culture and the customer, not their own wallet.

Sarcastically and with tongue firmly in cheek, I say "good luck"...

As a retailer myself, I can only act the way I wish all retailers would act (and some honestly DO act).

I fear that you are right Rocky, however it does not hurt to exercise our brain from time to time in case a new slant on solving the problem pops up. In the meantime, these discussions(as you have pointed out) on the internet do warn newcomers to kilt attire, that care in what they purchase, is wise.

I also totally agree, that there are kilt retailers who do indeed trade honourably. Thank goodness!

[davidlpope]

Steve,

I don't think it's that difficult. A traditional kilt is a knife-pleated, hand-sewn kilt made of 8+yards of twill-weave, worsted wool 13oz. or 16oz. tartan with a selvedge.

David

Okay, trying again, because I still don't think it's that hard: A traditional kilt is a knife-pleated kilt made of 8+yards of medium or heavy-weight twill-weave, worsted wool tartan fabric.

A 4-yd box-pleated museum piece is a historic kilt. A new kilt made in the same style is a historical kilt. A dancer's kilt is a dancer's kilt, a specialized form of a traditional kilt.

Hodden gray is an exception to the tartan rule, as is Saffron. Both are exceptions to the rule. Other exceptions to the rule exist, particularly when it comes to military uniforms (e.g. military box-pleats). The existence of exceptions to the rule, though, doesn't mean that one can't come up with a useful, fairly simple rule.

[figheadair]

Steve,

I don't think it's that difficult. A traditional kilt is a knife-pleated, hand-sewn kilt made of 8+yards of twill-weave, worsted wool 13oz. or 16oz. tartan with a selvedge.

David

But that would exclude most, it not all, kilts made befor c1850 because they were box pleated in one style or other and made from 4-5 yds of material. It would also exclude the military kilts worn until recently by the Argylls, Camerons and Seaforths.

And then what about a 'traditional kilt is a knife-pleated, hand-sewn kilt made of 8+yards' that, because of the size of the individual or the sett size, in fact only has 7.5 yards?

I remember standing in the back of a shop in the Royal Mile many years ago listening to a kilt maker pronouncing on what was a proper kilt which included the fact that it 'must' have 8 yards of cloth.

Me - is this (the one I was wearing) a 'proper' kilt?.

Him - looking at me front on, oh yes, that's a proper kilt.

Me - it's made from 4 yds of cloth.

Him - oh, that's not a proper kilt!

Confused tourists rather nicely emphasised the problem of trying to be proscriptive about a garment that has evolved over 200 years. At what point and in what format should/can the term 'traditional' be applied?

[Steve Ashton]

Quoting figheadair

"At what point and in what format should/can the term 'traditional' be applied?"

Don't even get me started on that word. That one word has caused more trouble on X Marks that any other I know of.

[davidlpope]

But that would exclude most, it not all, kilts made befor c1850 because they were box pleated in one style or other and made from 4-5 yds of material.

Yep. Those are historic kilts.

It would also exclude the military kilts worn until recently by the Argylls, Camerons and Seaforths.

Their military box-pleats make them exceptional, but I've noted that in the revised definition.

And then what about a 'traditional kilt is a knife-pleated, hand-sewn kilt made of 8+yards' that, because of the size of the individual or the sett size, in fact only has 7.5 yards?

I've revised the definition to account for the practical fact that skinny guys use less fabric and substantial guys use more.

I remember standing in the back of a shop in the Royal Mile many years ago listening to a kilt maker pronouncing on what was a proper kilt which included the fact that it 'must' have 8 yards of cloth.

Me - is this (the one I was wearing) a 'proper' kilt?.

Him - looking at me front on, oh yes, that's a proper kilt.

Me - it's made from 4 yds of cloth.

Him - oh, that's not a proper kilt!

Confused tourists rather nicely emphasised the problem of trying to be proscriptive about a garment that has evolved over 200 years. At what point and in what format should/can the term 'traditional' be applied?

Traditional, no. Historical, yes. Proper isn't a helpful adjective in this case and just tends to stir people up.

So, a traditional kilt is a knife-pleated kilt [or in certain rare cases, a military box-pleated kilt] made of around 8 yards of medium or heavy-weight twill-weave, worsted wool tartan fabric [or in certain rare cases, solid or tweed fabric].

[neloon]

Quoting figheadair

"At what point and in what format should/can the term 'traditional' be applied?"

Don't even get me started on that word. That one word has caused more trouble on X Marks that any other I know of.

Luckily, if/when the move referred to in the OP is progressed, the opinions of this site will not be sought
Alan

[MacKenzie]

I'm currently having a kilt made outside Scotland precisely because I couldn't find anyone here to make the style that I wanted, a c1830 unlined 5yd box pleated kilt. I hand-wove the cloth to match the sett and shades of a mid-18th century plaid. Do I care that it will not meet his arbitrary criteria to be a 'Scottish' kilt, not in the slightest!

I do hope you will allow us a few pictures once it's completed.

[figheadair]

I do hope you will allow us a few pictures once it's completed.

There's one of the work in progress in the last post here.