White Cockade?

[cessna152towser]

Moderator Note:-
Please bear in mind Rule 5:-

Rule #5
- Discussions on the topics of religion and politics most often result in conflict between members. Posts which quote historical facts or historical events are acceptable. Discussions of the rightness or wrongness of, espousing one over another, perceptions of, or personal belief in, a religion or political system are not acceptable. Quite simply, check your religion and politics at the door before entering.

Discussion of the historical facts concerning the White Cockade and the conflicts between the Williamite and Jacobite claims to the British throne are appropriate here but we must be careful not to stray into discussing the merits or otherwise of Scottish independence.

[cessna152towser]

Mod hat off:-
I have seen a few people here in Scotland wearing the White Cockade at clan gatherings or re-enactments. I think it fair to say these are seen in historical context and neither as an anti-establishment gesture nor as a political statement.

[merovingian]

Tough crowd.

[merovingian]

Sorry, 'tough crowd' was in reply to the other posts- I didn't realize it had spilled over to second page. Thanks for the 'mod' advice.

[Mathew MacKillop]

I wouldn't think so much "tough crowd" as folks who have seen these same trains of thought before, and may be a bit tired of historical fact and modern reality being confused with romanticized myths.

I would say, wear a white cockade, but make sure you know what it REALLY represented before you do...and then if you still want to honour ancestors who would have also worn it knowing full well what they fought for, go right ahead. Just don't confuse your modern "anti-establishment" views with the views and goals of the Jacobites.

[Dughlas mor]

I think it`s a fine idea to wear a white cockade in memory of your Jacobite ancestors. I won`t comment on the worthiness of the Jacobite cause, but I don`t think many would deny that a lot of worthy men fought, and died, and otherwise paid a high price in the attempt to restore the Stuarts to the throne.

[JonathanB]

I would say, wear a white cockade, but make sure you know what it REALLY represented before you do...and then if you still want to honour ancestors who would have also worn it knowing full well what they fought for, go right ahead. Just don't confuse your modern "anti-establishment" views with the views and goals of the Jacobites.

I would completely agree.

While we are on the subject I would be grateful for Jock’s comments on something relevant.

The persecution of the Highlands after 1745 is often spoken of simply as the English persecuting the Scots. Surely that’s only partly true? It was a small part of Scotland being persecuted by the rest of the UK, including the rest of the Scots.

One of the most distinguishing features of Scottishness since the days of John Knox was their Presbyterian religion, which had wide spread grass roots support and by C17 standards a democratic structure. This was why the Scots opposed the Stuarts from Mary Queen of Scots to James VII, who were both catholic. The Highlands by contrast had never been Presbyterian. The Jacobites were a threat to that religious settlement.

I hope I can say without controversy that the treatment of the Highlands after Culloden was wicked and as an Englishman I am deeply ashamed. I am not trying to white wash the English.

[Jock Scot]

I take absolutely no interest in religion and Scottish religious history. It is one, not the only one, of the very reasons that I think as I do on religious matters. I do think however that it is incorrect to blame the English in isolation over the events of 1745/46 and after. It was the British Army including Scots as individuals and Scottish Regiments that behaved so appallingly. Not the British Army's finest hour, but let us not forget the political skullduggery too.

If one was looking for a silver lining to the dark clouds hovering over the Highlands at that time, at least the inter-Clan feuding ceased and the Highlands were dragged, albeit unwillingly, into getting involved with the rest of the UK. Perfect it was not, but certainly better than it might have been. Did the end justify the means? No. But I think the Highlands would, even now, be more of a backwater than it is at present, without those terrible events happening.

[The Q]

Whilst I have a huge interest in history of the whole of the UK and Europe,
I say a big Aye to the second half of Jocks post.

[tripleblessed]

Having had relatives involved in those risings (on both sides), I've pondered the point of being on either side, as both were convinced of
their right to tell the rest where they could go to church and how they could worship. Fortunately, in present day this is a
historical concept, not current politics. Allows me to mention in passing, whereas were it current, verboten.

As to the Confederate flag, no current context, just a bunch of folk who haven't bothered to learn what the fuss was
about. A lot of that going around. Also relatives on both sides of that one.

My position on these is that I assume my folk and others involved were standing up for the side that more closely fit with their own.
We can't judge their causes by today's rules. I respect their willingness to stand up for their belief. As I do those who serve today.