WTB: Liverpool Scottish kilt (Forbes tartan, military pattern)

[The Wizard of BC]

You may be correct Peter. I simply do not know how the old stuff was done.

I do know that when I weigh fabric I compare it to today's fabric. One linear yard (36 inches) by 60 inches wide.
This I call a fabric yard as compared to a kilt yard which is the length of the fabric used to make the kilt regardless of its width.

So, one fabric yard would be 60"X36" or 2160 square inches. (that's 13935.46 square cm)

To determine the weight of the fabric used in a kilt I measure along the hem. This gives me the kilt length. Then multiply that by the total width (drop + rise) of fabric used in the kilt.

So let's say as an example only that I have a kilt that is made from a kilt length 288 inches long and is a total of 26 inches wide. 288"X26"=7488 square inches.
7488/2160=3.466 fabric yards. If the total weight of the kilt is around 65 to 67 ounces I would know that the kilt is made from 16oz fabric. (accounting for 10oz which is the approx. weight of the interfacing, stabilizer, lining, straps & buckles and thread.)

If I use the same standard all the time it gives me a pretty good comparison between the modern fabrics I use everyday and any other kilt that I run across.

(and by the way, and only for comparison - the modern kilt fabrics that I have used weigh between 14.2oz and 18.1oz using this method even though sold as 16oz. So there is no real standard and everyone is a bit different.)

[Laird O'the Cowcaddens]

Thank you gentlemen for imparting your wisdom and life experiences to us. I never tire of learning something new from the collected and vast knowledge that is available to us here on the Forum. People outside of this venue actually pay REAL MONEY to glean what we here share for FREE.

[piper909]

Very interesting stuff, to be sure! Thanks to all contributing -- by way of further detail, I will volunteer what I have experienced. There was a time in the later 70s when I could easily find surplus military kilts in Scottish militaria or outdoors shops. Most commonly Black Watch kilts but sometimes a few other tartans. They had all been issued and usually had the Thomas Gordon manufacturer tag in place, plus often the name of the previous owner in indelible ink. I recall trying on a couple at a shop in Perth and paying 25 pounds for one. They were all of a very heavy wool in a coarser weave, darker colors, and larger sett, plus the apron edge was finished straight (no fringe), the green twill top band and hanging loops were present, and the pleating would be according to regimental custom. I've heard this fabric described as "20 oz, saxony" before but don't know if this is accurate. But it is certainly much heavier than current 16/17 oz. worsted and without as distinctive a weave pattern. These kilts feel like blankets!

In the 1988 I shopped for surplus kilts at a sporting goods store in Inverness and compared two Cameron Highlanders/Queens Own Highlanders Erracht Cameron kilts that fit me; one, which I bought and climbed Ben Nevis in, I now recognize as an OR pattern. It had the box pleats and was noticeably darker in color than the other, which was likely an officer's kilt and more closely resembled what you'd find sold by today's suppliers, a "civilian" look and feel. Brighter colors and lighter weight. I can see these distinctions clearly in parade photographs of the Camerons in the 1950s.

I sold this kilt about fifteen years later to a collector and have since replaced it with one of the modern repros sold by the What Price Glory firm and made in India. It is a close match, but no mistaking it for the genuine article. The material isn't as good of quality, altho' it is very heavy. The green material isn't made of the same stuff, the tartan is darker, the finish rougher, the buckles and straps very tight and stuff. It's a good item for a reenactor but doesn't look or fit as well as the originals.

Sometime in the mid-1990s I had made a kilt by a major supplier who had advertised having a stock of surplus "military tartan," in BW and Gordon tartan only, from official British sources and was making kilts from this at a reduced rate. I ordered a Gordon kilt from this and was surprised when the item arrived and the material was no longer the old, heavy stuff I'd expected. It was slightly heavier than the "civilian" heavyweight, and darker colored and a larger sett, but otherwise hard to distinguish from an ordinary worsted kilt. I assumed that the MOD had changed its preferences over time and no longer required kilts be made of the harder-wearing stuff, what with the kilt being restricted more and more to ceremonial or service dress. That, and different contractors were now supplying kilts to the army.

I currently own a Gordon tartan regimental-style kilt that came from So. Africa and altho' it has no official markings remaining in it, from what the seller told me (a family heirloom) I believe was once issued to a member of the Cape Town Highlanders sometime in the 1940s or 50s, who wore this tartan. In most appearances it is indistinguishable from the older military kilts made by the Thomas Gordon firm.

Royal Regiment of Scotland kilts are about the only military issue garments I routinely see on eBay these days, and usually in the smaller sizes, those less commonly issued.

I have not personally handled a Canadian military kilt from any period altho' I see them coming up for sale from time to time -- all sorts of different tartans! They've always been made locally, I expect, as was most Canadian military kit, yes? And how are the kilted reserve units outfitted today, do members supply their own parade uniforms or are they issued all orders of dress by the government, from an approved contractor? Are some pricier, rarer items owned by the regiment in common and loaned out only as needed? (Dirks, feather bonnets, instruments, etc.)

A related question is, are individuals allowed to keep their uniform or some of their uniform after discharge? Is the source of surplus, secondhand kilts in the shops the result of private sales or does the government reclaim all bits of uniform, reuse or store, then eventually sell the items off to wholesalers/retailers? Are British and Canadian practices different in this regard?

[48HofC]

Generally as a rule everything that was issued to you in the Canadian Forces is turned back in when it is either warn out or you are no longer in the service. Depending on the storesman who takes your kit, they might tell you to keep items that are second skin ie; undergarments,shoes etc, but that is not the norm.
99.9% of the highland kit is owned directly by the regiment itself, not the army. These are purchased through regimental funds and are sourced through the best priced manufacturers at the time required so they could be of Scottish or Canadian origin. The example I will use is the 48th Highlanders of Canada. They are the only Scottish unit in the world that can turn out the entire regiment in scarlet full dress from feather bonnet to hair sporran. When not in use, the full dress items are turned back into regimental stores until required again. The only exception is the pipes and drums who have their own separate stores and keep their full dress as regular issue. Since their founding in 1891, the regiment has never surplused any highland kit and for that fact, every piece of 48th highland kit that someone sells on eBay as an issued item, can in fact be seized as stolen....The regiment actually does enforce this in some circumstances.
The only items you would generally buy is blue patrols and mess dress which you can dispose of as you wish. Some individuals choose to buy uniform parts because they have the money and choose a tailor fit. I myself have had items made by Myer and Mortimer in London England for the mere fact I enjoy proper turnout.
You are correct about most high ticket items being purchased or donated to the regiment and being loaned out. Some officers will buy their own broadsword or sgian dubh, but there is a pool to draw from if they choose. Most pipes are owned by the pipers with a scattering of a few regimental sets among them. The drums are supplied by the army, but the regiment will have the battle honors emblazoned on them at their own cost and usually remove them when a new set is issued.
As for finding surplus highland kit in Canada, the prospects are very dim. Most CF clothing items are supposed to be sliced with a knife or marked up to be made unserviceable and are sold off as used fabric or leather in 4x4 cardboard bins. Highland kit as a rule stays within the regiment until it is basically ready for the bin. British kit is sold off though, usually intact through MOD disposal, hence all the RRS items on eBay. Some pre amalgamation kilts/trews etc have been kept by the new battalions but most was disposed of between 2006 and 2008 by the MOD. The stuff is

[The Q]

British military service is normally listed as something like 12+6 that is 12 years normal service followed by 6 six in the reserves. During which you are required to keep your issued uniform. When I completed my 12+6 I was not asked to return the uniform. Had I left directly from the RAF (say medical discharge) I would have been asked to return the uniform).