WTB: Liverpool Scottish kilt (Forbes tartan, military pattern)

[piper909]

I'm interested in buying a military issue kilt in good-plus condition for the Liverpool Scottish territorial battalion. They wore the Forbes tartan. Can be new/unissued or secondhand, as long as it's wearable and presentable. Large & tall sizes only; I am 6'1" tall, 185 lbs; waist needs to fit 36-38 and length 25" or a little less. I want this for historical reenactment purposes (the Liverpool Scottish were active in the world wars on many fronts) and as a tribute so men from that unit who served with the Commandos, so it does need to be military issue, not just a civilian kilt. (Most of you here will be familiar with the different material, pleating, and sett of military kilts.)

Send me details, pictures, and your price! Thanks!

[figheadair]

I think you will be very lucky to find a Liverpool Scottish kilt, the last ones were probably made in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Even then, they were made for young men and so the average waist would have been 30-33".

[piper909]

Yes, they are hard to find. One came to eBay about a year ago but it was a shade too small. I investigated the possibility of having it altered by a reputable kiltmaker but in the end he didn't think the kilt had enough surplus material in it to work with, and dissuaded me from wasting time and money on the attempt.

I saw the TA unit, with pipe band, kilts in evidence, marching in Liverpool in the late 1980s; I'm not entirely certain if it's status now is active enough to allow for issuance of MOD clothing that isn't regarded as combat-essential. So how long has it been since a batch of regimental Forbes kilts were made? And would the material be the same? Modern army tartan doesn't seem to be at all like what I have seen in the past (e.g., the Thomas Gordon firm that is credited in so many older kilts). I need to also make inquiries among Canadian contractors and see what is being provided to the kilted Canadian reserve units.

[The Wizard of BC]

OK, because you asked.

I am Regimental Kiltmaker to The Canadian Scottish Regt. here in Victoria. The current kilts I make for them are made from newly woven fabric in 16oz weight.

I also own a current RRS kilt. It is a hand finished, machine sewn kilt also made from 16oz weight fabric.

As a Docent at the Royal BC Museum I have access to many kilts made prior to and during WWI. While the fabric is generally coarser than that woven today the weight is not the mythical 22 oz stuff that everyone seems to think of. I have weighed these kilts and the fabric varies between 15oz and 19oz.

I have also noticed a marked difference between an officers and an enlisted kilt. In general officers had their kilts custom made. Usually by one of the Scottish based kilt shops but not by those holding the military contracts. I have seen and held two made of very heavy silk. Most of the other officer's kilts are made from far finer woven, lighter weight, Merino wool.

I also notice that there is no one, single standard way to make these older kilts. Some have the elastic loops in the back of the pleats used for parade occasions. Some are machine sewn except for the Fell area. One was hemmed from fabric that does not have a kilt selvedge. I have seen just about every type and method of closure imaginable. One had no fasteners and was obviously pinned as evidenced by the holes where straps and buckles would be today. One had a single long strap that went all the way from the under-apron edge - around the back - to a buckle on the outer apron edge. In almost every case where the two prong buckles were used the straps have been perforated so many times that they have failed like a sheet of paper toweling.

There is also a wide range of quality to the manufacture, the thread used, and the stitching. I have held two kilts with Scottish Contract labels in them where the stitching is of a very heavy, thick stuff almost like yarn. The stitches are huge and are plainly visible from across the room.

I am a believer that "The proper military issue kilt" is a myth. I've seen far too many examples and far too many differences in military kilts to be able to say what a 'proper' kilt would actually be.

There is a very famous photo of The Gordon Highlanders sitting around outside their barracks making their own kilts. There is plainly a sewing machine in the picture. It would seem that there was no single regimental kiltmaker available and that this unit did not get its kilt from a contracted kiltmaker.



If you are looking for a kilt from the period when kilts were worn in combat you will need to find one from WWI and kilts like this are usually in museums and private collections. I don't remember ever seeing an actual WWI era kilt on EBay going for less than antique prices.

But good luck and keep us posted.

[The Wizard of BC]

And because you mention Thomas Gordon and Sons here is a label from a kilt made by them dated Mar 1952.
This kilt is made from fabric very similar to that found today. 16oz.



The internal stitching used cotton thread that had simply rotted over time. This caused the kilt to fall apart because the internal elements were not of the quality and level of manufacture we see today.

Here is what the kilt looked like when it came to me.



Please notice that the buckles had been replaced and the black band on the top of the kilt had been oversewn with a light green twill tape to simulate the dark green banding used after WWII.

In general, the fabric itself was in pretty good condition. The top banding and all the internal elements had rotted.

[figheadair]

As a Docent at the Royal BC Museum I have access to many kilts made prior to and during WWI. While the fabric is generally coarser than that woven today the weight is not the mythical 22 oz stuff that everyone seems to think of. I have weighed these kilts and the fabric varies between 15oz and 19oz.

I understand that the mythical 22oz stuff was the heavy ORs' cloth woven with a Cheviot yarn. The weight referred to a linier yard but I don't know if this was single or double width, the former I suspect, nor what width either was. The width may have been other than the modern 28/54 inch standard.

[The Wizard of BC]

You may be correct Peter. I simply do not know how the old stuff was done.

I do know that when I weigh fabric I compare it to today's fabric. One linear yard (36 inches) by 60 inches wide.
This I call a fabric yard as compared to a kilt yard which is the length of the fabric used to make the kilt regardless of its width.

So, one fabric yard would be 60"X36" or 2160 square inches. (that's 13935.46 square cm)

To determine the weight of the fabric used in a kilt I measure along the hem. This gives me the kilt length. Then multiply that by the total width (drop + rise) of fabric used in the kilt.

So let's say as an example only that I have a kilt that is made from a kilt length 288 inches long and is a total of 26 inches wide. 288"X26"=7488 square inches.
7488/2160=3.466 fabric yards. If the total weight of the kilt is around 65 to 67 ounces I would know that the kilt is made from 16oz fabric. (accounting for 10oz which is the approx. weight of the interfacing, stabilizer, lining, straps & buckles and thread.)

If I use the same standard all the time it gives me a pretty good comparison between the modern fabrics I use everyday and any other kilt that I run across.

(and by the way, and only for comparison - the modern kilt fabrics that I have used weigh between 14.2oz and 18.1oz using this method even though sold as 16oz. So there is no real standard and everyone is a bit different.)

[Laird O'the Cowcaddens]

Thank you gentlemen for imparting your wisdom and life experiences to us. I never tire of learning something new from the collected and vast knowledge that is available to us here on the Forum. People outside of this venue actually pay REAL MONEY to glean what we here share for FREE.

[piper909]

Very interesting stuff, to be sure! Thanks to all contributing -- by way of further detail, I will volunteer what I have experienced. There was a time in the later 70s when I could easily find surplus military kilts in Scottish militaria or outdoors shops. Most commonly Black Watch kilts but sometimes a few other tartans. They had all been issued and usually had the Thomas Gordon manufacturer tag in place, plus often the name of the previous owner in indelible ink. I recall trying on a couple at a shop in Perth and paying 25 pounds for one. They were all of a very heavy wool in a coarser weave, darker colors, and larger sett, plus the apron edge was finished straight (no fringe), the green twill top band and hanging loops were present, and the pleating would be according to regimental custom. I've heard this fabric described as "20 oz, saxony" before but don't know if this is accurate. But it is certainly much heavier than current 16/17 oz. worsted and without as distinctive a weave pattern. These kilts feel like blankets!

In the 1988 I shopped for surplus kilts at a sporting goods store in Inverness and compared two Cameron Highlanders/Queens Own Highlanders Erracht Cameron kilts that fit me; one, which I bought and climbed Ben Nevis in, I now recognize as an OR pattern. It had the box pleats and was noticeably darker in color than the other, which was likely an officer's kilt and more closely resembled what you'd find sold by today's suppliers, a "civilian" look and feel. Brighter colors and lighter weight. I can see these distinctions clearly in parade photographs of the Camerons in the 1950s.

I sold this kilt about fifteen years later to a collector and have since replaced it with one of the modern repros sold by the What Price Glory firm and made in India. It is a close match, but no mistaking it for the genuine article. The material isn't as good of quality, altho' it is very heavy. The green material isn't made of the same stuff, the tartan is darker, the finish rougher, the buckles and straps very tight and stuff. It's a good item for a reenactor but doesn't look or fit as well as the originals.

Sometime in the mid-1990s I had made a kilt by a major supplier who had advertised having a stock of surplus "military tartan," in BW and Gordon tartan only, from official British sources and was making kilts from this at a reduced rate. I ordered a Gordon kilt from this and was surprised when the item arrived and the material was no longer the old, heavy stuff I'd expected. It was slightly heavier than the "civilian" heavyweight, and darker colored and a larger sett, but otherwise hard to distinguish from an ordinary worsted kilt. I assumed that the MOD had changed its preferences over time and no longer required kilts be made of the harder-wearing stuff, what with the kilt being restricted more and more to ceremonial or service dress. That, and different contractors were now supplying kilts to the army.

I currently own a Gordon tartan regimental-style kilt that came from So. Africa and altho' it has no official markings remaining in it, from what the seller told me (a family heirloom) I believe was once issued to a member of the Cape Town Highlanders sometime in the 1940s or 50s, who wore this tartan. In most appearances it is indistinguishable from the older military kilts made by the Thomas Gordon firm.

Royal Regiment of Scotland kilts are about the only military issue garments I routinely see on eBay these days, and usually in the smaller sizes, those less commonly issued.

I have not personally handled a Canadian military kilt from any period altho' I see them coming up for sale from time to time -- all sorts of different tartans! They've always been made locally, I expect, as was most Canadian military kit, yes? And how are the kilted reserve units outfitted today, do members supply their own parade uniforms or are they issued all orders of dress by the government, from an approved contractor? Are some pricier, rarer items owned by the regiment in common and loaned out only as needed? (Dirks, feather bonnets, instruments, etc.)

A related question is, are individuals allowed to keep their uniform or some of their uniform after discharge? Is the source of surplus, secondhand kilts in the shops the result of private sales or does the government reclaim all bits of uniform, reuse or store, then eventually sell the items off to wholesalers/retailers? Are British and Canadian practices different in this regard?

[48HofC]

Generally as a rule everything that was issued to you in the Canadian Forces is turned back in when it is either warn out or you are no longer in the service. Depending on the storesman who takes your kit, they might tell you to keep items that are second skin ie; undergarments,shoes etc, but that is not the norm.
99.9% of the highland kit is owned directly by the regiment itself, not the army. These are purchased through regimental funds and are sourced through the best priced manufacturers at the time required so they could be of Scottish or Canadian origin. The example I will use is the 48th Highlanders of Canada. They are the only Scottish unit in the world that can turn out the entire regiment in scarlet full dress from feather bonnet to hair sporran. When not in use, the full dress items are turned back into regimental stores until required again. The only exception is the pipes and drums who have their own separate stores and keep their full dress as regular issue. Since their founding in 1891, the regiment has never surplused any highland kit and for that fact, every piece of 48th highland kit that someone sells on eBay as an issued item, can in fact be seized as stolen....The regiment actually does enforce this in some circumstances.
The only items you would generally buy is blue patrols and mess dress which you can dispose of as you wish. Some individuals choose to buy uniform parts because they have the money and choose a tailor fit. I myself have had items made by Myer and Mortimer in London England for the mere fact I enjoy proper turnout.
You are correct about most high ticket items being purchased or donated to the regiment and being loaned out. Some officers will buy their own broadsword or sgian dubh, but there is a pool to draw from if they choose. Most pipes are owned by the pipers with a scattering of a few regimental sets among them. The drums are supplied by the army, but the regiment will have the battle honors emblazoned on them at their own cost and usually remove them when a new set is issued.
As for finding surplus highland kit in Canada, the prospects are very dim. Most CF clothing items are supposed to be sliced with a knife or marked up to be made unserviceable and are sold off as used fabric or leather in 4x4 cardboard bins. Highland kit as a rule stays within the regiment until it is basically ready for the bin. British kit is sold off though, usually intact through MOD disposal, hence all the RRS items on eBay. Some pre amalgamation kilts/trews etc have been kept by the new battalions but most was disposed of between 2006 and 2008 by the MOD. The stuff is