Just because we can?

[MacGumerait]

My views are just as valid as yours, EVEN if they differ, agreed. But that means that neither is more correct than the other.

Your tone is interestingly British, IMHO. Which seems to be down-the-nose-with-a-stiff-upper-lip-esque. Huh. How dare I, good man, precisely?

Have you lived in America? Do you have family or ancestors that emigrated to other countries? Do your personal views take into account other countries? Maybe my very defensiveness is do to the criticism of those with no dog in the fight?

I am not going to apologize because I disagree, even if you demand others to see your point of view.

The kilt, and the wearing of, exists even "outwith" the borders of Scotland, because many Scots took their heritage with them when they left, for whichever reason, regardless of what you think is proper, or not. Who are YOU to tell my late Scottish great-grandfather who chose to wear his kilt "outwith" your cute rules? If he wasn't past, I'd dare you to tell him what is or isn't proper!

Seems to me that a proper Scot should be very proud that a fellow Scot, or distant Scot, should be proud of their heritage and ancestry to wear traditional garb. A better approach would be to gently guide others into the most correct wear, but ultimately, the choice is theirs to make.

Even if they choose to wear the pleats in the front!

T.

Someone either needs a beer or a nap .

[cessna152towser]

As one Scot who wore kilts almost daily for several years you make some very valid points Jock. I regularly wore a kilt to work in the legal profession. I took early retirement from my profession at 58. One of the reasons I chose bus driving as a part-time retirement job was the prospect of becoming one of those kilted tour bus drivers whom you often see in Edinburgh and the Highlands. In practice around 98% of my driving duties have involved public service buses and school transport where black trousers are de rigeur for duty. I found that after a day in trousers I was less enthused to make the effort to dress up in a kilt with all its accessories solely for leisure purposes, for many activities trousers or shorts were actually more comfortable. Yes I still wear my kilts on suitable occasions, usually when it is nice to be smartly dressed yet not at work.

[OC Richard]

British down-the-nose-with-a-stiff-upper-lip

I doesn't strike me that way. I've been around British people my whole life (and my father was the world's biggest Anglophile) and there's a thing that's different, that I might call the "it just isn't done" thing.

British (and Irish) people seem, in general, to have a greater awareness of unwritten codes of behaviour. Americans' typical unawareness of such things can make us seem, to them, gauche, and at times downright rude.

A better approach would be to gently guide others into the most correct wear, but ultimately, the choice is theirs to make.

I think that's exactly what Jock has been doing for a long time here. I for one appreciate it, and am glad that he's been able to hang tough despite the slings and arrows he sometimes endures.

Though I think the word "correct" is over-reaching a bit... it's more like "what's done" v "what isn't done".

[Thekiltedmohawk]

I read everyone's posts include the OP's original post. Naturally, I don't agree with Jock's views respectfully.

In my view.. A speck of the Americans and the Canadians that wears kilts full-time doesn't cheapen, or atleast devalue the kilt itself. I wear kilts on a regular basis, because it's more comfortable for me than wearing a trouser. If I show up in a church in my kilt, and someone else who doesn't think that's appropriate.. That's their problems not mine. I know the great Lord above doesn't care about it. Father Bill, right?

I choose my comfortableness over the socials norms.

Frankly, in my opinion, that's like saying an African-American that wears imported African clothing everyday somehow cheapen the garb itself. That's a silly notion, IMO.

Once again great discussion.

[Father Bill]

If I show up in a church in my kilt, and someone else who doesn't think that's appropriate.. That's their problems not mine. I know the great Lord above doesn't care about it. Father Bill, right?
.

I think God probably cares about a lot of other things more than that, so I think you get a point there.

[OC Richard]

the Americans and the Canadians that wear kilts full-time don't cheapen, or devalue the kilt itself.

For sure how often something is worn, in and of itself, doesn't devalue it, I wouldn't think.

I think Jock is speaking to appropriateness. A traditional Highland outfit, a proper kilt, proper kilt hose, proper kilt jacket, etc is an expensive tailored outfit of very expensive fabric. The 'Saxon' equivalent (in quality of fabric, quality of construction, and price) would be a $1,000 all wool suit. How many would wear this for everyday dress, say, buying groceries, or doing yard work, or backpacking in the hills?

Now if you're talking Utilikilts and their progeny, Utilikilts exist quite outside of Highland Dress per se. They were invented in the Seattle area and are part of a fashion culture completely different, and having nothing whatsoever to do with, Highland culture. I don't think that's what Jock is addressing. He wears actual Highland Dress, in the Highlands.

I don't think people wearing Utilikilts (and their copies) as daily dress cheapens Highland Dress, due to it having nothing to do with Highland Dress.

If I show up in a church in my kilt, and someone else who doesn't think that's appropriate.

The appropriateness depends on the person's purpose for wearing the kilt, and their purpose for attending church.

[Tarheel]

I didn't think I would touch this subject. I've studied all the posts carefully and found the debates and opinions interesting.

I have limited my kilt wearing since my first (over the top) outings I went kilted. I noticed I was becoming a "novelty" in my community when seen in my kilt. That is nothing new to me as I thrive on the celebrity.

A bit of time has passed. People recognize me without my kilt now and know my qualities and character in various contexts. I now attend functions kilted and am not viewed (from confidential chats with folks I trust) as eccentric, thus to be avoided.

I feel the difference between Jock's circumstance and mine is, he doesn't have to explain the Highlands or kilt to the masses where he lives. The history is there and it is daily. I bring that history to my present, foreign land, when I go kilted here and will gladly spend any amount of time sharing it with anyone interested. The fount of knowledge I have gleaned from the XMarks has become a well, that people here are interested in dipping into, to quench a thirst for learning.

[Stan]

Now I realise full well, that I come from a different generation to most of you, I come from a different Country from most of you, my upbringing has been different to most of you, I have also been my own boss for most of my life and I can wear the kilt in the home of the kilt on almost any day that I choose.These things do inevitably give me a different perspective, but just because I can, does not mean that I should. Personally I rarely wear the kilt outwith Scotland, in fact I rarely wear the kilt outwih the Highlands of Scotland. I don't wear the kilt every day and I don't expect to wear the kilt for every occasion. I could, but I don't. Why? Its called common sense, discretion and an ability to consider others and these three things vary in importance for each and every occasion.

Which leads me to my point and concern. Just why must some of you insist on wearing the kilt on almost every occasion you can think of when, your boss, wife, partner, host, occasion may differ and when frankly, the event dictates for many reasons, that something other than the kilt ought to be worn? Yes, I understand this if you only have the kilt to wear, but really is that just an excuse? It is so easy and fairly inexpensive these days to pop out and buy a pair of trousers if required. Is there an element, a large element even for some , of showing off going on here? I think probably so.

My concern, for what it is worth, is that the kilt will no longer be something special ----------and yes, and without putting the kilt on an alter, it is special to me and many Scots who worry that those outwith these shores who have, understandably perhaps, a different perspective------ it will be cheapened by either becoming a throw away fashion item, or an item of ridicule mainly because the wearer has not got the forethought to realise that the kilt is not always the best choice for a particular event.

What do you think?

I've read the comments of others, and here's what I say about the subject.

When I was a new kilt wearer, I would wear a kilt to many of my "events".. Not the ball game or ?? but at that time my rule was (a) to any dinner out with friends that was going to cost me over 65.00. & (b) to the Performing arts center, were I'm a season ticket holder for a number of series...

This went on for about 2 years, and then as my kilt wearing matured, I chose to wear a kilt on only about 1/3 of those events. Why? Because (at least to me) it felt like I had been over working the whole "I wear a kilt" feeling that I started off with.

At one point, I just had to take a look at myself, and ask, is my kilt wearing the kilt to honor my heritage, for "comfort", for shock / bravado (the "I can do it" idea) value, or what?

In that self reflection, I concluded that after about 4 years of becoming "kilt savvy", that I've matured a bit in my kilting ideas, and had to acknowledge that some time I wore a kilt for reasons that I no longer thought were valid.

Now I wear one of my kilts to my "going out" events about 4 times a year, not 12, AND that's good with me. To me, the all the time, and every where just became to much. If it's not that way for you, then that's OK with me. I just think that I was "eating steak so often that it was feeling less special".

Now.... to scratch my, "I like wearing a kilt" itch, I've joined the Scottish club, and am a member of a pipe band.. So.. even with my 3/4 retraction in my "event" kilt time, I still get in 3-5 times a month, worth of (what I consider for me) appropriate kilted opportunities, and that seems to be more then enough for me...


I understand that we all have choices, and we all have opinions, and mine fall more with in line with those of Jock Scot then the rest... which I don't share, but DO respect.

BTW, (AND off topic) I'll never stop cringing when I hear a (potentially) new kilt wearer say that their "first time" will be to a costume party or at Halloween. Why not St Andrews day or Tartan day?

[jumary]

First, thanks to Jock for starting this discussion. I believe it would make interesting reading for a university Sociology course as it contains such a wide spectrum of views presented, mostly, clearly and respectfully.

Regarding one of Jock's statements, "So I have taken the position of; if the kilt is going to be worn worldwide then let us at least wear the thing properly and with attire to suit the event, whilst not making a spectacle of the kilt," it seems that most people on XMTS want to do this. I certainly have learned a great deal here, and I will do my best to show respect to the kilt.

I frankly really like the idea that kilt wearing can and should be a bit understated and restrained. It presents a really interesting irony: On the one hand the garment, when worn outside of the Highlands, is not at all typical and draws some attention. On the other hand, I am learning here that kilt wearing can be carefully and tastefully done as a normal thing.

I also want to comment on OC Richard's statement: "The 'Saxon' equivalent (in quality of fabric, quality of construction, and price) would be a $1,000 all wool suit." While the kilt can be worn in this way, it seems to be quite adaptable, as perhaps, a nice pair of trousers that one could wear with a polo shirt, a button-down shirt with or without tie, or with a sport coat or suit jacket. To me, this adds to the irony.

I finally feel compelled to add my take on Jock's position about wearing kilts outside of the Highlands. I respectfully feel that we/I can do so if we want to. I don't quite understand the resistance of some Highlanders to our wearing of the kilt. I am not a Texan, but I am an American, and I have never heard of anyone objecting to foreigners wearing western/cowboy garb. Rather, it is welcomed. If anything, foreigners trying too hard and wearing too many bells and whistles are seen with some bemusement, but not not as a negative thing. Western wear and Highland wear may not be a good point of comparison, but I do find it interesting.

Sorry if this rambled too much, but thanks again to Jock for getting it started.

[Thekiltedmohawk]

I think Jock is speaking to appropriateness. A traditional Highland outfit, a proper kilt, proper kilt hose, proper kilt jacket, etc is an expensive tailored outfit of very expensive fabric. The 'Saxon' equivalent (in quality of fabric, quality of construction, and price) would be a $1,000 all wool suit. How many would wear this for everyday dress, say, buying groceries, or doing yard work, or backpacking in the hills?

That's silly. The trouser wearers trade in their $1000 wool suit for jeans/ cargo/ khaki pants/shorts, wool/cotton socks, and a comfortable shirt. No one in their right mind would wear $1000 suit for those activates.

We as the kilt wearers do same as above except to hang up the $500+ 8 yards 16 oz kilt to wear the p/v kilts, utilikilts, x-kilts, or the other kilts with the light fabric that's designed for the causal activities. No one in the right mind would dress in the $1000+ Prince Charlie set to mow the lawn.