Regimental Blackwatch Kilts

[OC Richard]

Final note... the tartan on these is Government 1A. It has a slightly lighter and brighter green in it than the standard "Black Watch" or Government Sett 1.

Yes the RRS kilts aren't "Black Watch" kilts strictly speaking.

For before the formation of the RRS there were three different tartans in use, a book I have lists them like this

-Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (Officers)

-Black Watch (Officers)

-Black Watch And Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (Other Ranks)

AFAIK the Other Ranks tartan was the super-heavy tartan with the slightly fuzzy blanketlike surface, while both the Officers tartans was more like civilian 16oz tartan.

The Royal Regiment Of Scotland kilts are made from the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (Officers) tartan, with its rather lighter shade of green, and 16oz weight.

From what I can see from vintage military kilt labels, the OR tartan shared by the Black Watch and the Argylls was called "1a" but since the formation of the RRS that designation has been switched to the Argylls Officers' tartan.

Here's a photo of Jimmy Anderson before he became Pipe Major, better illustrating the size of the man. At 6'4" and 18 stone I can relate!

You can see the (old) 1a OR tartan on the left, the Officers/Senior NCO tartan on the right with its darker colours.



Note how they gave him a short ratty sporran and the shorter guy a super long sporran.

And here is the Pipe Major of the Argylls showing the lighter green in the Officers/Senior NCO tartan, this tartan now worn by the entire Scottish infantry.

[WillowEstate]

The other kilts on the website http://www.britishmilitarysurplus.co...lt-690738.html are the predecessor Black Watch, complete with the light green binding along the top and of the darker colours. They could very well be the 22 ounce "Blanketweave" variety. If so, then depending on condition, at GBP 110 they would be a steal - always assuming you are sufficiently sylph like!

Interesting, in passing, both kilts are listed in the Trousers section!

[OC Richard]

The predecessor Black Watch, complete with the light green binding along the top and of the darker colours. They could very well be the 22 ounce "Blanketweave" variety.

Yes probably so.

As you point out the RRS OR's kilts depart from the longstanding tradition of British military OR's kilts in the following ways (if not more!)

-black binding replacing the traditional grass-green herringbone twill binding

-civilian style buckles (rendered in black) replacing the traditional stamped steel 2-prong buckles

-16oz tartan replacing the traditional extra-heavy tartan

The traditional way, a BW kilt made in 1957



An old Seaforth Highlanders kilt



The new way: black binding, civilian style one-prong buckles. (At least they made the buckles black.)



What they have retained is the lack of fringe and the high rise. (Not as high, seems to me.)

[WillowEstate]

Thanks, very nice comparison.

I think the Seaforth kilt in the middle is officially called the Mackenzie Seaforth and was worn by a number of regiments, including the Highland Light Infantry and possibly the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, as well as the Seaforth Highlanders. Seaforth is, of course, on Skye and the clan maps show the Mackenzies in Sutherland, which may or may not be relevant. My heirloom kilt is one such, ex HLI. The sett is very large, around 15 inches red line to red line. Take the red and white lines away and the background is Black Watch, I believe.

I've seen the front aprons centred on the red line and also on the white line in the centre of the red square but, so far, have failed to discover the significance. All the military ones I've seen are pleated to the white line, mine is a knife pleat.

[figheadair]

Thanks, very nice comparison.

I think the Seaforth kilt in the middle is officially called the Mackenzie Seaforth and was worn by a number of regiments, including the Highland Light Infantry and possibly the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, as well as the Seaforth Highlanders. Seaforth is, of course, on Skye and the clan maps show the Mackenzies in Sutherland, which may or may not be relevant. My heirloom kilt is one such, ex HLI. The sett is very large, around 15 inches red line to red line. Take the red and white lines away and the background is Black Watch, I believe.

I've seen the front aprons centred on the red line and also on the white line in the centre of the red square but, so far, have failed to discover the significance. All the military ones I've seen are pleated to the white line, mine is a knife pleat.

No, the A and SH wore Government 1A which is the setting and colouration carried on into the RRS for all ranks and battalions.

[WillowEstate]

No, the A and SH wore Government 1A which is the setting and colouration carried on into the RRS for all ranks and battalions.

Thanks, Peter, I was never quite sure, I had heard yes and no from different sources.

[OC Richard]

As I mentioned above, the Other Ranks of the Black Watch and the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders were made of the same fabric, just pleated differently. (From what I have read and what I have seen, looking at actual old kilts.)

The senior Sergeants and Officers of both regiments wore different fabric from the Other Ranks, in the Argylls it had the green rendered much lighter. It was this tartan that is worn by all ranks of the RRS.

Black Watch officers had a tartan with a bit darker colours overall. (See photo in post above.)

I have a book that has swatches of all three of these tartans, but unfortunately doesn't give the government numbers assigned to them. Photographs support the information in the book. The caveat is that I'm just an American civilian, who never served in either regiment.

I am an artist, a person used to using my eyes, which show this: the OR kilts of the BW and Argylls having green of about the same lightness- the Argyll tartan doesn't jump out as having a lighter green

BW OR kilt


Argylls OR kilt


which contrast dramatically, to my eye anyhow, with the tartan of the Argylls senior sergeants and officers, now worn by the RRS. I don't know if the difference is as clear to others as it is to me. The green is almost a moss green, rather than the "tartan green" of the OR kilts.



However! Here's a Black Watch kilt, with the No1 label, which is very dark (you can see the green binding to tell that it's not a matter of the photograph being too dark overall)



Now what do the labels say? It's interesting that is says "kilt no 1a" and "kilt no 1a". Does this mean it's the kilt that's being referenced rather than tartan?

[Steve Ashton]

One thing that many people who have little or no experience with the British military may not understand, and which I only learned when I became Regimental Kiltmaker to The Canadian Scottish, is that the RSM or Regimental Sergants Major, has a lot of influence over how the uniform in his unit is worn. There are published standards but the RSM has wide leeway in his interpretation.
For example - In the Canadian Scottish, who wear the Stewart Hunting Tartan, it is currently the standard that Officer's kilt have a yellow stripe centered on the front apron and the center back while Enlisted kilts have a red stripe centered on the front apron and center back.
This was not always this way. In the 1950's in this Regiment, under a different RSM, these lines were reversed.

Odd to my American military experience the RSM in British units has far more power and influence than the Commanding Officer and far more leeway than I what am used to.

[OC Richard]

In the Canadian Scottish, who wear the Stewart Hunting Tartan, it is currently the standard that Officer's kilt have a yellow stripe centered on the front apron and the center back while Enlisted kilts have a red stripe centered on the front apron and center back.
This was not always this way. In the 1950's in this Regiment, under a different RSM, these lines were reversed.

This is interesting. What happens with the existing kilts when a change is made like that?

Another thing, do the kilts have the "ketchup & mustard" pleating in the back? If so, it's new to me to think of a "pleated to the stripe" kilt as having a rear center-line. The apparent lack of such is why it behooves pipe bands to have their kilts pleated to the stripe, because the buckles can be moved to fit various people over the years without the glaring problem of uncentered rear portions that happens when you move the buckles on a kilt pleated to the sett.

[Rakk]

This is an interesting thread, and I have a few questions for those that have bought one of these:

1. What do the sellers mean by "Grade 1", "Supergrade", etc. Are these standard terms, or just marketing fluff?
2. Are the waist sizes accurate, or do they run smaller than spec? I have a 36" (92cm) waist, plus or minus a few hamburgers. I am assuming a 92 would fit, or at least be close enough to alter.
3. What did you need to do to make them presentable; dry clean/re-press pleats, new straps, repair stitching? I just started Grade-4 solo piping, and have been borrowing a kilt. I do like the BW tartan, but some of these on e-bay look a little ratty.

Thanks, Rakk