Feather bonnet age?

[Jags]

Hi everyone,

Hoping to find an authority on Scottish Regimental feather bonnets amongst you.

I recently obtained two feather bonnets, one is a Seaforth Highlanders bonnet, the other (I think) an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders bonnet.

The Seaforth's bonnet has a two lug metal badge in the style of the pre-1961 amalgamation with the Cameron Highlanders. The dicing is red, white and green - consistent with the Seaforth's colours. It has a plastic chinstrap and adjustable headband strap, and it came in a vinyl drawstring bag. Given all this, and mainly because of the plastic straps, my guesstimate is that it is from the 1950s. Would anyone suggest otherwise?

The 'Argyll's' bonnet has red and white dicing but a Cameron Highlanders pre-1961 badge. I have done some research and think I'm right in saying only the Argyll's have red and white dicing. Can anyone verify this?

There are also two other holes inside the headband next to the Cameron's badge which I take as evidence of a different badge being worn previously. The holes are further apart and as the Argyll's badge is quite large, it looks as though the Cameron's badge is wrong. I think the dicing of the Cameron Highlanders should be red, white and blue but I'm not 100% sure. Can anyone verify this?

Whilst both headband sizes are the same, the 'Argyll's' bonnet is bigger all over. It is much rounder and fuller looking than the neater, slimmer Seaforth's bonnet and the tails appear 'as one' with the rest of the hat whereas the tails of the Seaforth's bonnet quite clearly start at the top of the headband area. The Argyll's bonnet has leather straps and a much nicer black lining over the cage, the cage lining seems ever so slightly padded unlike the Seaforth's cage lining. I cannot tell if all these things are a sign of it being an older bonnet or just a better made/more expensive bonnet at the time of purchase. Any thoughts on this?

I'd love to know if there is a book or guide to bonnet specifications out there somewhere as I've just about broken Google trying to find answers to my questions!

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and expertise on the queries raised.

Thanks in advance!

J

[48HofC]

The lugs on a Argyll cap badge are closer together than the ones on Cameron or Seaforth's, out of curiosity I just checked my pre 60's ones. You need to keep an open mind that the bonnets may not even be military since every pipe band was wearing them in the era you are looking at. Without MOD or regimental markings, the odds are they are civie bonnets with military badges stuck on them, or if they are of an extra fine quality, they could be officer private purchase. I have seen civilian bands wearing all the dicing styles you have described and the red/white check is indeed what the Argylls wore, as well as the Canadian Argylls, the Calgary Highlanders etc. When it comes to condition, it all leads back to quality when originally purchased because they do all age differently from exposure to sun, rain, feather quality etc. How many tails are on each of the bonnets?

[Jags]

Thanks for your reply. I've answered within the body of your original message, below:

The lugs on a Argyll cap badge are closer together than the ones on Cameron or Seaforth's, out of curiosity I just checked my pre 60's ones.

That's interesting... Seaforth's lug spacing is indeed wide but the Argyll's badge is approx H80mm x W60mm, whereas the Cameron's badge is approx H60mm xW55mm. The lugs on the Cameron's badge look to be at approx 45mm centres - I'll need to measure. From photos, I'd have guessed the Argyll's lugs to be at 50mm+ centres?

You need to keep an open mind that the bonnets may not even be military since every pipe band was wearing them in the era you are looking at.

True, I am going on 'vague recollections' that they were bought from ex-servicemen for use in pipe bands.

Without MOD or regimental markings, the odds are they are civie bonnets with military badges stuck on them, or if they are of an extra fine quality, they could be officer private purchase. I have seen civilian bands wearing all the dicing styles you have described and the red/white check is indeed what the Argylls wore, as well as the Canadian Argylls, the Calgary Highlanders etc.

Why would a civvie playing in a pipe band do this? Would the band not have its own badge?

When it comes to condition, it all leads back to quality when originally purchased because they do all age differently from exposure to sun, rain, feather quality etc. How many tails are on each of the bonnets?

Four tails on each bonnet.

[48HofC]

Civilian pipe bands and pipers have been wearing military cap badges forever it seems with the Highland regiments being most popular. At the World pipe band championships you could see bands wearing Gordon, Argyll, Queens Own Highrs,etc badges, so it is still prevalent today. Many bands had loose affiliations with the old regiments, be it through old associations, ex servicemen starting the band, the list goes on. Some soldiers/ex soldiers do take issue with it, but the MOD doesn't care anymore because none of the badges are worn by any active regiments and in many cases permission was sought and given.

With regards to the mounting holes on the bonnet, my regular glengarry badge is spaced different than the staff badge I wore on my feather bonnet, so that is another consideration. As far as I know, the only bonnet dicing that can only be attributed to a particular regiment and not copied, is the vandyke (zig zag) pattern on first the Scots Greys then the RSDG's.

[Jags]

Civilian pipe bands and pipers have been wearing military cap badges forever it seems with the Highland regiments being most popular. At the World pipe band championships you could see bands wearing Gordon, Argyll, Queens Own Highrs,etc badges, so it is still prevalent today. Many bands had loose affiliations with the old regiments, be it through old associations, ex servicemen starting the band, the list goes on. Some soldiers/ex soldiers do take issue with it, but the MOD doesn't care anymore because none of the badges are worn by any active regiments and in many cases permission was sought and given.

With regards to the mounting holes on the bonnet, my regular glengarry badge is spaced different than the staff badge I wore on my feather bonnet, so that is another consideration. As far as I know, the only bonnet dicing that can only be attributed to a particular regiment and not copied, is the vandyke (zig zag) pattern on first the Scots Greys then the RSDG's.

Interesting stuff, thanks for this info. So, they're possibly not as old as I first thought. I know the 'Seaforth' bonnet with the plastic chinstrap was bought second hand in the 80s but know nothing of the other to help age it. It doesn't matter, im just interested as I find them fascinating.

I'm torn between the two because I only need one so I intend to sell the other. The trouble is whilst the 'Seaforth' bonnet is more comfy on, has better condition lining and in my opinion a nicer dicing/badge combo, the 'Argyll' bonnet trumps it all day on shape and size! I had no idea there was such variation out there.

[OC Richard]

As for civilian wearing of feather bonnets with those dicing patterns, yes I have seen many feather bonnets sold in the ordinary civilian trade with the red & white 93rd Highlanders/Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders dicing.

But in 40 years of being around this stuff I can't remember ever seeing a civilian-market Glengarry or feather bonnet with the military red white & green dicing. The legit UK makers AFAIK have long used red white & black for the civilian market. (Red white & green for the Gordon Highlanders and the Seaforth Highlanders; red white & blue for the Black Watch and Queens Own Cameron Highlanders, who BTW used dicing on their feather bonnets but not on their Glengarries.)

It is a problem with Highland Dress that firms like Thomas Gordon & Son made doublets using identical materials and patterns for both military and civilian use, and likewise you'll see bonnets and various other things made identically by the same firms for both markets.

About the wider-spaced lugs, there would be a number of units using feather bonnets with the red & white dicing

-the 93rd Highlanders from the late 18th century to 1881.

-the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders from 1881 to recent times. Not so long ago their pipes & drums were on tour and the drummers were wearing these bonnets.

-the Calgary Highlanders.

-Cape Breton Highlanders.

-Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders of Canada.

Perhaps if you could determine the width between the lugs on these various cap badges you might find a match.

Victorian 93rd Highlanders badge



Calgary Highlanders badge

[48HofC]

Interesting stuff, thanks for this info. So, they're possibly not as old as I first thought. I know the 'Seaforth' bonnet with the plastic chinstrap was bought second hand in the 80s but know nothing of the other to help age it. It doesn't matter, im just interested as I find them fascinating.

I'm torn between the two because I only need one so I intend to sell the other. The trouble is whilst the 'Seaforth' bonnet is more comfy on, has better condition lining and in my opinion a nicer dicing/badge combo, the 'Argyll' bonnet trumps it all day on shape and size! I had no idea there was such variation out there.

The Argyll pattern is now gone from the British army with the reduction of 5SCOTS to Balaclava company, so it would be the rarer of the two so it seems. My first bonnet had the plastic chin strap and I couldn't stand it, not very comfortable especially in the heat. I traded it in as soon as I could and found the leather one ten times better. You can get the liner fixed up or a new one installed, had one done years ago in Edinburgh.

[Jags]

Funny, I read OC Richard's post and thought, yeah that's right, it is hard to get red, white, green - I'll keep that one. Then I read 48HofC's post about the Argyll dicing no longer being used and thought the same. I guess one can never have too many bonnets. Maybe I should collect them all!

[OC Richard]

The trick is the sizing, at least for somebody like me with a big head, 62 in UK sizing.

Feather bonnets are made to exact sizes, just as Glengarries and Balmorals are.

Anyhow here's several of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders feather bonnets being worn



And here in action, the last days of the Argylls... but they've come back before!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d9zS9IxwYw

In their current Public Duties role, the pared-down "incremental company" (Balaclava Company)

The pipes & drums appear to be those of 4 SCOTS (The Highlanders)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enmLzK0E3ok

which makes me wonder what happened to the pipes & drums of 5 SCOTS. One would think in their ceremonial role having their own pipes & drums would be necessary.

[48HofC]

The trick is the sizing, at least for somebody like me with a big head, 62 in UK sizing.

Feather bonnets are made to exact sizes, just as Glengarries and Balmorals are.

Anyhow here's several of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders feather bonnets being worn



And here in action, the last days of the Argylls... but they've come back before!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d9zS9IxwYw

In their current Public Duties role, the pared-down "incremental company" (Balaclava Company)

The pipes & drums appear to be those of 4 SCOTS (The Highlanders)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enmLzK0E3ok

which makes me wonder what happened to the pipes & drums of 5 SCOTS. One would think in their ceremonial role having their own pipes & drums would be necessary.

The pipes and drums of 5 SCOTS were broken up and the members were were distributed between the 4 remaining battalions or went to the regular infantry companies. The last PM, Scott Methven went on to be the present sovereigns piper. There is not enough work for a pipe band to be maintained for public duties with Balaclava company, so different bands from the battalions are tasked along with the SCOTS military band to perform on certain occasions. With the rerolling of P&D's from SF to AP, they are becoming more necessary in their non music role as part of the overall regiment.
The chances of the Argylls returning is about the same as the Cameronians, not a part of the new model army the MOD is striving for. The remaining battn's are not able to keep numbers up as it is and even 1 SCOTS has been downsized to fit the new "specialized battalion" role. It is a sad state really, eventually SCOTS will likely be down to 3 reg and 1 reserve bttn's.