Level(s) of formality

[ThistleDown]

Just the limitation. It hadn't occurred to me when looking at some of the manufacturers' sites. I've ordered a brown muskrat from L & M, and I guess it could be Canadian traditional but not Scottish traditional based on your list. It's just the one that most appealed to me. Shipped this morning. (Jones, Jones)

Ah, do I see a white-tie occasion in your future?

I suppose muskrat, beaver, skunk, et al, will become traditional in the future, but for now not very "old-school". Regardless, wear your rodent with joy and abandon

[Father Bill]

Yes, I'm to be installing officer for London Sovereign Chapter of Rose Croix. As such, the officer is normally white tie and tails or equivalent, although black tie would be acceptable. Other members of the team are to be black tie and tux or.... I know of at least one who will be kilted besides myself, since I moved the buckles and straps on his kilt a couple of weeks ago.

For myself, I'm thinking Sheriffmuir and vest, diced hose, and my "rodent" as you call it, but I'll wear my clerical shirt with its collar, which is after all, white.

The alternative would be horse-hair, but cantles don't fit well under my belly, so the rodent would be more comfortable.

[ThistleDown]

Yes, I'm to be installing officer for London Sovereign Chapter of Rose Croix. As such, the officer is normally white tie and tails or equivalent, although black tie would be acceptable. Other members of the team are to be black tie and tux or.... I know of at least one who will be kilted besides myself, since I moved the buckles and straps on his kilt a couple of weeks ago.

For myself, I'm thinking Sheriffmuir and vest, diced hose, and my "rodent" as you call it, but I'll wear my clerical shirt with its collar, which is after all, white.

The alternative would be horse-hair, but cantles don't fit well under my belly, so the rodent would be more comfortable.

Nice, very nice. I have a rodent, too. Mine's beaver, but on the very rare occasion I've attended white-tie in the last twenty years I've worn badger or seal. With beaver re-introduced to Scotland I would think it will become old-school sooner than muskrat, but that's years from now. Beavers don't often cross roads

[Father Bill]

No; chickens do, but we don’t know why and they would make lousy sporrans

[ThistleDown]

Oh, Father, you know why: that's where the egg is. Oh, wrong riddle, sorry

[Steve Ashton]

Hi Bill,

You asked for opinions in the "Old School" vein. Well, I think I qualify as Old and I was raised in an age when things like White Tie and Tails were still worn.

Today White Tie and Tails is reserved for the most formal events. State dinners, The Vienna Opera Opening Night and the Nobel Prize Awards ceremony and banquet that follows.
Other than State dinners at national capitals there are almost no true White Tie and Tails events in N. America. Even opening nights at Carnegie are now Black Tie.

To me White Tie and Tails is a uniform. Please note that I will always call this mode of dress by its proper and full name "White Tie and Tails". If an invitation says just "White Tie", it would an indication that the person hosting the event does not know what it means and I would dress in Tuxedo.

One year I happen to have been in Stockholm on the night of an Nobel Prize Awards ceremony. I went to stand on the sidewalk and oogle the swells.
One gentleman showed up in Black Tie, Full tuxedo with a white bow tie, top hat, gloves and white scarf. He was stopped at the door and politely directed down the street to one of the hire companies that stay open late for just such an eventuality. He was directed to procure the proper mode of dress and return. At which time his invitation which specified "White Tie and Tails" would be honored.

National and Clerical dress are accepted but only if you are representing the country or the church on an official capacity.

So I would never wear a kilt to an event that specified White Tie and Tails on the invitation. I would not be attending as a representative of Scotland so to my eye would not be proper.
In fact I do not believe that there is a Kilt equivalent to White Tie and Tails for 99% of us. There is National Dress which could be worn to a White Tie and Tails event if representing Scotland in an official capacity.

To me it is not what can I wear, but what should I wear.
Out of respect I would wear the required uniform.

White Marcella stiff fronted shirt with separate wing color, studs with matching cufflinks.
White, hand-tied, silk bow tie.
White low-cut waistcoat with pearl buttons.
Black, high waisted, swallow tail trousers without cuffs and two rows of black silk braid down the leg, held up with braces.
Black cut away tail coat with black silk facings.
If I were going outside at all or going inside from a car I would carry a black silk top hat, Black, Kid or dove gloves and white silk scarf.
Dress pumps in patent leather or polished to a patent gloss. The ones with the sole that is paper thin.
Black dress hose.
No wrist watch.



In regards to a sporran for formal events. I personally view full face sporrans like I do Hunter style sporrans.
One notch below formal sporrans.

[Father Bill]

Absolutely correct Steve, but the regulations I’m following belong to the Grand Lodge of Canada in the Province of Ontario and the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry in Canada as is usual in Ontario application... which permits the kilt as an alternative, and to which I’ve worn it in the past.

[Liam]

Hi Bill,

You asked for opinions in the "Old School" vein. Well, I think I qualify as Old and I was raised in an age when things like White Tie and Tails were still worn.

Today White Tie and Tails is reserved for the most formal events. State dinners, The Vienna Opera Opening Night and the Nobel Prize Awards ceremony and banquet that follows.
Other than State dinners at national capitals there are almost no true White Tie and Tails events in N. America. Even opening nights at Carnegie are now Black Tie.

To me White Tie and Tails is a uniform. Please note that I will always call this mode of dress by its proper and full name "White Tie and Tails". If an invitation says just "White Tie", it would an indication that the person hosting the event does not know what it means and I would dress in Tuxedo.

One year I happen to have been in Stockholm on the night of an Nobel Prize Awards ceremony. I went to stand on the sidewalk and oogle the swells.
One gentleman showed up in Black Tie, Full tuxedo with a white bow tie, top hat, gloves and white scarf. He was stopped at the door and politely directed down the street to one of the hire companies that stay open late for just such an eventuality. He was directed to procure the proper mode of dress and return. At which time his invitation which specified "White Tie and Tails" would be honored.

National and Clerical dress are accepted but only if you are representing the country or the church on an official capacity.

So I would never wear a kilt to an event that specified White Tie and Tails on the invitation. I would not be attending as a representative of Scotland so to my eye would not be proper.
In fact I do not believe that there is a Kilt equivalent to White Tie and Tails for 99% of us. There is National Dress which could be worn to a White Tie and Tails event if representing Scotland in an official capacity.

To me it is not what can I wear, but what should I wear.
Out of respect I would wear the required uniform.

White Marcella stiff fronted shirt with separate wing color, studs with matching cufflinks.
White, hand-tied, silk bow tie.
White low-cut waistcoat with pearl buttons.
Black, high waisted, swallow tail trousers without cuffs and two rows of black silk braid down the leg, held up with braces.
Black cut away tail coat with black silk facings.
If I were going outside at all or going inside from a car I would carry a black silk top hat, Black, Kid or dove gloves and white silk scarf.
Dress pumps in patent leather or polished to a patent gloss. The ones with the sole that is paper thin.
Black dress hose.
No wrist watch.



In regards to a sporran for formal events. I personally view full face sporrans like I do Hunter style sporrans.
One notch below formal sporrans.

Is this Jock Ashton speaking? 😉

[ThistleDown]

Absolutely correct Steve, but the regulations I’m following belong to the Grand Lodge of Canada in the Province of Ontario and the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry in Canada as is usual in Ontario application... which permits the kilt as an alternative, and to which I’ve worn it in the past.

In agreement, FB. You were asking about 'old school' traditional and I assumed you were referring to Highland dress. I can't disagree with Steve on any of what he says as a transport from so-called Saxon to Highland, or with his experience, but 'old school' (in my experience and schooling) tells me that 'white tie' is exactly what you will be wearing and that you were only inquiring about the full-face sporran accompaniment. I still love your rodent, even though it is not "old school".

[Terry Searl]

Just the limitation. It hadn't occurred to me when looking at some of the manufacturers' sites. I've ordered a brown muskrat from L & M, and I guess it could be Canadian traditional but not Scottish traditional based on your list. It's just the one that most appealed to me. Shipped this morning. (Jones, Jones)

BY Golly Father Bill. usually I'm not into full mask or fur sporrans but the one pictured has definitely changed my mind in that regard. What was the size of the interior pocket, does it have a fair bit of room? Can you show the site where you purchased it from.....I might like to get one as well