Argyle jacket with white tie?

[RichardtheLarge]

I am one of those that believes that white tie is not just wearing a white bow tie instead of a black one. I do not believe wearing lace jabot and cuffs denotes white tie.

To me white tie is only for those most formal of events. State dinners, the Noble prize awards and banquet, the opening night of the Vienna opera.
(I happened to witness first hand a man arrive at the Noble prize ceremony not in the proscribed uniform who was politly directed down the street to one of the hire stores, who stay open late, and to obtain the appropriate attire.)

To me white tie is a proscribed uniform. It is "White Tie and Tails". This means a tail coat and all of the appropriate accessories.

I am one of those who does not believe that there is a kilted equivilant to white tie. The only exception would be as the official representitive of Scotland at a state function where other heads of state are representig their countries in their National Dress.

So no, I'm sorry, I do not believe that an Argyle jacket is acceptable white tie attire.

Steve, do you happen to remember what the gentlemen turned away from the door was wearing on this occasion? Thank you!

[Steve Ashton]

Yes, I do remember it quite distinctly.

Now, just so there is no mistake, I was not invited and took no part in the Noble Prize ceremony. I was there as a tourist and went down to catch sight of some celebrities.

The guy, sorry, I don't know who it was, showed up in a tuxedo with a white bow tie.

[Steve Ashton]

I have heard that the Nobel Prize ceremonies are no long strictly white tie and tails. I saw some pictures of what may have been the awarding of perhaps one of the less prestigious prizes ceremonies and the King and recipient were in suits.

Another member also sent me a link to the Vienna Opera. It appears that their dress code may have lessened now too.

[RichardtheLarge]

Yes, I do remember it quite distinctly.

Now, just so there is no mistake, I was not invited and took no part in the Noble Prize ceremony. I was there as a tourist and went down to catch sight of some celebrities.

The guy, sorry, I don't know who it was, showed up in a tuxedo with a white bow tie.

That makes sense; I guessed he might have come in a suit or a tuxedo. I wonder if he would have been barred from the door wearing formalwear from another culture entirely (a Sherwani, for example...). It begs the question, though, of just how many systems of dress you could reasonably expect your doormen to be familiar with! There are probably few people who could correctly identify African or Asian semi-formal wear and bar the doors accordingly.

[OC Richard]

Much of this thread goes to show how fashions and attitudes change.

I like to take the long view. So often people take a current attitude they hear voiced as if it was carved into a stone tablet and brought down from the mountaintop in ancient times. The attitude might be of recent origin, and I like knowing about such things.

Years ago an old Scottish lady was telling me how the Prince Charlie was THE dress jacket, as if it had always been the only Evening Dress jacket in existence, dating back to early times. I had to chuckle inside- the Prince Charlie was only a decade or so old when she was born.

And by the way the Prince Charlie was often worn with jabot in its early days, so Sir Sean isn't so far off the mark there.

BTW he has an interesting way of wearing his flashes...



So many people I run into feel "Evening Dress = Black Prince Charlie + Black Bow Tie". This 1:1 correspondence never existed... there have always been other jacket styles around, other colours of jackets around, other sorts of neckwear around.

[FossilHunter]

So many people I run into feel "Evening Dress = Black Prince Charlie + Black Bow Tie". This 1:1 correspondence never existed... there have always been other jacket styles around, other colours of jackets around, other sorts of neckwear around.

I think there are two factors at play here though. The hire industry has an interest in stocking just one style in one color. It just makes sense financially. Many people in Scotland do not own or regularly wear a kilt and seem to rent an outfit for events like weddings so they see what's in the shop and they imagine that it's always been that way.

The second thing, which I think plays more into non-Scots who wear the kilt, is that the PC looks like a tuxedo and is worn for similar events. Since the only proper colors for a tux are black and midnight blue (which is itself uncommon these days), the assumption is that highland dress should follow the same convention which is affirmed (in the mind of the renter) by the hire shops with their all black jackets.

[Hirsty]

The only white tie affairs (two, I shan't count my University graduation as that had some rather unusual interpretations of dress) that I have attended have both been in Scotland and the vast majority of males were kilted.
I have chatted to a couple of friends who have attended white tie balls south of the border - both wore Highland Dress an neither were turned away. One of the chaps noted there were Saudis dressed in thobes at one of the balls he attended.
Personally, I would question the decorum of the organiser if you were refused entry for wearing your finest evening Highland Dress.

[Bruce Scott]

Dress for the Royal Caledonian Ball

Copied from: https://www.royalcaledonianball.com/dress

"Part of the particular appeal of the Ball is that everyone attending is wearing traditional formal evening dress. The dress requirements are stated below in summary and in detail. Please note that those not correctly dressed will be refused entry.

Please note that gentleman taking part in the set reels must wear highland evening dress or mess kit, tail coats only if part of mess dress, and ladies must wear clan sashes.

If you are unsure about any aspect of the dress code, please contact the Ball Secretary.

Gentlemen

Essential:
Highland evening dress comprising kilt and sporran, evening jacket of black broadcloth or coloured velvet, white evening shirt and black bow tie or lace jabot, or

Evening dress, comprising black evening tail coat, white shirt with wing collar, white bow tie and white waistcoat, or

Mess dress, worn according to regulations, with, preferably, where permitted, any more formal variation such as stiff shirt, wing collar and black bow tie.

No dinner jackets or trews.

Optional, but encouraged:

Orders and Decorations





The "requirements" are accompanied by this photograph

[kingandrew]

I assumed the lad in the Caledonian Ball invitation picture had been dancing, which explained his mild disarray. I agree that the shirt showing under the vest is not a great look, but I figured that wasn't how he looked when he arrived.

Regarding his hair: when I had hair, I had the same kind of unruly curly locks. Sadly, all a brush or comb could do was to torture the scalp, since the hair was so curly and thick that it would not give way before grooming utensils. The best I could do in that department was to use an Afro pick, which would tease it all out into a cloudy red halo around my head. My solution once I started working was to keep it trimmed short enough that it looked professional/respectable. My guess is that this young man probably faces similar issues and may still be young enough that he thinks it looks ruggedly adventurous, rather than ill-groomed.

Of course, age has solved that problem for me and now I have a curly red (and silver) beard pouring off the lower end of my face.

Regarding other styles of national dress: I remember wearing my kilt to the Metropolitan Opera in New York. At intermission time, I went to get a drink and saw a Chinese gentleman standing at the bar wearing a lovely full-length traditional tan silk gown with mandarin collar and frog closures. He looked great and I gave him a thumbs up.

When people wear national dress, they are generally dressing up. Were I guarding the door at a formal event, I would certainly admit anyone who was so attired, regardless of the nation their clothing represented. However, the Caledonian Ball is clearly intended to be Scottish, so I can see why they limit dress to Highland or white tie and tails for those lacking a kilt.

Andrew

[Tarheel]

Terry, I was channeling my inner child with my comment. I am too old to set or follow any trend, have cats that take care of mice and own two brushes for my rapidly thinning hair.

If the young lad in the picture was a bit flushed in the cheeks and damp from exertion, I would give him a pass.