Argyle jacket with white tie?

[Jock Scot]

Yes, right here:
https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/in...an-Connery.jpg
To be fair, I’ve seen him in states of arguable faux pax with highlandwear—a long tartan tie with his Coatee, for example. I’d suggest, though, that if the high collar or coverage of the chest with the jacket or vest is what is missed with the jabot, that an Argyle with a five button vest might be more suitable for a jabot than a Coatee or prince Charlie with a three button vest as pictured here. I suppose part of the trouble might just be the long association of Argyles with daywear nowadays.

What is your opinion on highlandwear as formalwear in general? Does anything seem amiss to you if people appear at a formal ball, for example, in a doublet, jabot, and kilt instead of white tie and tails?

Ah yes thank you, indeed I have seen that picture and yes it looks hideous!

Generally I think there are events that warrant a black bow tie and there are white tie events. Personally I rarely wear the kilt outwith Scotland and don't venture forth to those events these days. So should I attend formal evening events outwith Scotland I would wear a dinner jacket with a black bow tie or tails with white tie depending on the event's requirements.

As I think I have made clear the correct attire is the correct attire and anything else won't do for ultra formal events, and in Scotland the jabot is often the choice of attire for kilted gentlemen at white tie events in Scotland, but actually and interestingly, because kilt attire has very different traditions to saxon wear, a black tie with a higher end jacket(a PC won't really do), tartan hose, buckle shoes, formal sporran and silver sporran chain is perfectly acceptable to Scottish white tie events---------in Scotland.

[RichardtheLarge]

Ah yes thank you, indeed I have seen that picture and yes it looks hideous!

Generally I think there are events that warrant a black bow tie and there are white tie events. Personally I rarely wear the kilt outwith Scotland and don't venture forth to those events these days. So should I attend formal evening events outwith Scotland I would wear a dinner jacket with a black bow tie or tails with white tie depending on the event's requirements.

As I think I have made clear the correct attire is the correct attire and anything else won't do for ultra formal events, and in Scotland the jabot is often the choice of attire for kilted gentlemen at white tie events in Scotland, but actually and interestingly, because kilt attire has very different traditions to saxon wear, a black tie with a higher end jacket(a PC won't really do), tartan hose, buckle shoes, formal sporran and silver sporran chain is perfectly acceptable to Scottish white tie events---------in Scotland.

When one is invited to these formal Scottish events, what is the invitation likely to say? “Eveningwear”? “White tie”? “Formalwear”? Would you have particular qualms, for example, about attending a “black tie” event internationally with a kilt and a suitably formal jacket/doublet and accessories? Or is this simply something you don’t elect to do yourself?

Living in the states, I’ve had no occasion to be confronted with this particular issue at home as I’ve never been invited to an event that has specified “black tie” “white tie” or “white tie and tails”. The closest I’ve come is an invitation that specified “semi-formal”, but at which people were wearing a wide variety of things including daywear Saxon suits and formal tails. This lack of consciousness and organization, I suppose, is what has led pundits to cry that (at least in North America) “black tie is dead”.

For me, then, there’s no particular obstacle to wearing a kilt formally or semiformally to the events I do attend (theatrical and musical events and premieres, for the most part). There is effectively no dress code at all at such events, and you see people wearing everything from jeans to tails to them in the States. My kilt and jacket, then, are just seen as novel, fun spirited, and interesting, at least to those who have voiced an opinion to me on the subject.

One more question on the subject of Scottish formalwear: all else being identical in two outfits, are lace jabot and cuffs with a Sheriffmuir doublet, for example, considered equally formal as a black bow tie and French cuffs with the doublet?

[RichardtheLarge]

While I fully understand that there are Highland balls, where those not in Highland wear will wear formal wear, these are highland wear specific formal events.

There are very few White tie events left in the world. Almost none in N. America outside of a state dinner at the White House. I have cited a few others around the world. But I think the wisest thing to do is pay attention to the invitation. If the invitation states "White Tie and Tails" respect the host and the solemnity of the event.

National Dress on an invitation does not mean "I am of Scottish descent so I can wear my kilt". It means you are attending as the official representative of a nation. If, for example, you are officially representing the country of India you would wear that countries' Formal National Dress. Either Achkan/Sherwani or Bandhgala.

If you want to truly follow the guidelines used in the UK "Debrett's" is the difinitive guide to etiquette. It is quite specific on what constitutes White Tie Dress Code.

(Please note that the kilt is mentioned as appropriate for certain Highland Balls.)

"WHITE TIE

White tie is also known as ‘ full evening dress’, ‘ full dress’, ‘evening dress’ or, informally, as ‘tails’. White tie is the most formal of dress codes and is not common today. Before the Second World War it was standard evening dress for gentlemen, as may be seen in period dramas on television.

Today white tie is worn in the evening at certain royal ceremonies and balls, and state and livery dinners. White tie may also be specified for formal evening weddings and for some charity balls. It is also the dress code for some Highland balls, for those men not entitled to wear the kilt. It is no longer seen at the theatre or opera, and opera cloaks and silk top hats, along with canes and white gloves, are now only seen on stage.

‘White tie’ will always be stated on the invitation itself. Many organisations hosting events will say ‘white or black tie’, as they are aware that the former may be difficult for some invitees.

White Tie: Men
– A black single-breasted tailcoat in black wool (barathea) or ultrafine herringbone with silk peaked lapels, often grosgrain (worn unbuttoned). The coat is shorter at the front than a morning coat.

– Black trousers with a natural taper and two lines of braid down the outside leg.

– A white marcella (cotton piqué) shirt with a starched detachable wing collar and double cuffs.

– Cufflinks and studs. The shirt will usually be closed with studs rather than buttons. These may be plain white or decorative.

– A low-cut, white marcella evening waistcoat (double or singlebreasted).

– A thin, white hand-tied marcella bow tie.

– Highly polished or patent black lace-up shoes, worn with black laces (traditionally ribbon) and black socks.

– In winter, a black overcoat and white silk scarf may be worn.

White Tie: Women
– Full-length, formal evening dresses. It is traditional, but not essential, to show décolletage. Shorter dresses or trousers, no matter how smart, are not acceptable.

– Jewellery can be striking; this is the time for the finest jewels and gems, including tiaras. Traditionally these are worn for the first time by brides, and subsequently by married women only. It is incorrect for young girls to wear tiaras on any occasion.

– Evening bags should be small and elegant.

Gloves
Long evening gloves are traditionally worn at balls and dinners when the dress code is ‘white tie’ but are no longer compulsory at many events. They work best with sleeveless dresses but older women may wear them with cap or short sleeves. With long sleeves it is better to dispense with gloves, rather than wear short ones. Gloves should be worn en route to an event, in a receiving line, when shaking hands and dancing. They are removed when eating (even a canapé) and at the dinner table – they should be taken off finger by finger and rested on the lap under the napkin.

Women’s Evening Coats
For formal evening events, daytime coats look out of place. A smart evening coat, cloak, pashmina or wrap in a suitable material is preferable.

Variations on White Tie
An alternative to white tie on certain occasions may be national costume, for example Indian, Chinese or Arabian. This will usually be stated on an invitation.

Certain societies or clubs may give balls at which their own evening dress coats are worn (usually coloured tail coats, red, blue or green, with special facings). These are worn with a white tie and waistcoat, but often with ordinary dinner jacket trousers. Non-member male guests, not entitled to the club coat, usually wear black tie.

The dress code ‘full-dress ceremonial’ is occasionally seen for very formal or state occasions. For evening this may usually be interpreted as white tie for civilians but it is important to ask and check with the host or organiser. For daytime events such as state funerals it can mean dress uniform for those in the services, robes for peers or judges, or particular vestments for clerics, and usually morning dress or simple business attire for others.

Decorations
If the dress code is white tie and the event is a royal or state occasion, or a very formal event in, say, the City, then the dress code may state ‘Evening Dress—Decorations’. It is correct to wear decorations in the presence of The Queen but very unusual to wear them at a private event or charity ball, however grand. It would generally be more of a mistake to wear them than not to do so.

If decorations are asked for, then knights and dames should wear the most senior chivalric orders to which they belong rather than all their decorations. Stars such as the Garter or Thistle are displayed on the left side of the evening coat or dress. Knights Grand Cross of an order may also wear a sash and badge. There are also medals that may be worn on a ribbon round the neck, just below the tie. Others may be worn as miniatures on a bar, and this is also usual when the dress code is black tie and decorations.

In practice, ex-service people are usually familiar with the wearing of medals, as are members of orders. If in doubt when attending a royal event then the best thing is to ask the Palace or relevant private secretary. It goes without saying that no one should wear decorations to which they are not entitled. Even as fancy dress these may give offence, for example to genuine veterans, so treat with care."

Quoted from Debrett's

I personally feel that wearing a kilt and calling it White Tie is disrespectful. Not only to the host, but to the others attending, and the purpose of the event.

Thank you for this thoughtful post. Respectfully, I would like to suggest that certain cultural biases and double standards are at play here. According to the source, an Englishman at a Highland Ball is under no obligation to modify his formalwear in accordance with context, location, and the visual standard and aesthetic of his hosts. His white tie and tails are effectively a “passport” to somebody else’s formal event, and no further adjustments are necessary on his part. Indeed, I rather doubt that someone hosting a Highland Ball would specify that men must be in kilts, and would have no qualms with men appearing in tails.

In reverse, however, we seem to run into the notion that a Scot in England or elsewhere is not free to act equally—that is, to bring his own formalwear abroad as someone from England or Austria might do. This state of affairs almost seems like an etiquette and convention based affirmation of the historical ban on tartans! It’s as if as long as tartans are out of sight and out of mind, and confined to the Scots’ own segregated balls, then all is well—but certainly don’t make others look at them!

The book of etiquette, moreover, seems to have been composed at a time when critiques of cultural primacy were in their infancy, or at least far less influential. For my own part, if I were to host a formal dinner and specify that it is formal, I would be delighted to see my Indian friends and colleagues arriving in Sherwanis as opposed to donning “someone else’s” formalwear. I would be concerned that white tie and tails on their part is representative of a kind of cultural coercion, and would therefore run counter to the spirit of such an event (the spirit I imagine for solemn occasions or fetes is one of friendship and exchange, as opposed to the one group serving the tastes and preferences of the other).

I hope in the future to see a relaxing of the formal codes described here, and an acceptance of the multitude of national styles present worldwide, as opposed to what I can’t help but think of as an “English/Continental aesthetics, styles, and norms above others” tradition.

All of that said, I’m not quite sure what I would do if I were invited to an event that specified “white tie” or “white tie and tails”. I certainly have no desire to “ruin” someone else’s party, but I can’t help but wonder if all people might benefit from broadening their exposure to various styles and customs of dress.

Regardless, I very much appreciate your wish to keep me out of trouble!
Richard

[RichardtheLarge]

I am one of those that believes that white tie is not just wearing a white bow tie instead of a black one. I do not believe wearing lace jabot and cuffs denotes white tie.

To me white tie is only for those most formal of events. State dinners, the Noble prize awards and banquet, the opening night of the Vienna opera.
(I happened to witness first hand a man arrive at the Noble prize ceremony not in the proscribed uniform who was politly directed down the street to one of the hire stores, who stay open late, and to obtain the appropriate attire.)

To me white tie is a proscribed uniform. It is "White Tie and Tails". This means a tail coat and all of the appropriate accessories.

I am one of those who does not believe that there is a kilted equivilant to white tie. The only exception would be as the official representitive of Scotland at a state function where other heads of state are representig their countries in their National Dress.

So no, I'm sorry, I do not believe that an Argyle jacket is acceptable white tie attire.

Steve, do you happen to remember what the gentlemen turned away from the door was wearing on this occasion? Thank you!

[Steve Ashton]

Yes, I do remember it quite distinctly.

Now, just so there is no mistake, I was not invited and took no part in the Noble Prize ceremony. I was there as a tourist and went down to catch sight of some celebrities.

The guy, sorry, I don't know who it was, showed up in a tuxedo with a white bow tie.

[Steve Ashton]

I have heard that the Nobel Prize ceremonies are no long strictly white tie and tails. I saw some pictures of what may have been the awarding of perhaps one of the less prestigious prizes ceremonies and the King and recipient were in suits.

Another member also sent me a link to the Vienna Opera. It appears that their dress code may have lessened now too.

[RichardtheLarge]

Yes, I do remember it quite distinctly.

Now, just so there is no mistake, I was not invited and took no part in the Noble Prize ceremony. I was there as a tourist and went down to catch sight of some celebrities.

The guy, sorry, I don't know who it was, showed up in a tuxedo with a white bow tie.

That makes sense; I guessed he might have come in a suit or a tuxedo. I wonder if he would have been barred from the door wearing formalwear from another culture entirely (a Sherwani, for example...). It begs the question, though, of just how many systems of dress you could reasonably expect your doormen to be familiar with! There are probably few people who could correctly identify African or Asian semi-formal wear and bar the doors accordingly.

[OC Richard]

Much of this thread goes to show how fashions and attitudes change.

I like to take the long view. So often people take a current attitude they hear voiced as if it was carved into a stone tablet and brought down from the mountaintop in ancient times. The attitude might be of recent origin, and I like knowing about such things.

Years ago an old Scottish lady was telling me how the Prince Charlie was THE dress jacket, as if it had always been the only Evening Dress jacket in existence, dating back to early times. I had to chuckle inside- the Prince Charlie was only a decade or so old when she was born.

And by the way the Prince Charlie was often worn with jabot in its early days, so Sir Sean isn't so far off the mark there.

BTW he has an interesting way of wearing his flashes...



So many people I run into feel "Evening Dress = Black Prince Charlie + Black Bow Tie". This 1:1 correspondence never existed... there have always been other jacket styles around, other colours of jackets around, other sorts of neckwear around.

[FossilHunter]

So many people I run into feel "Evening Dress = Black Prince Charlie + Black Bow Tie". This 1:1 correspondence never existed... there have always been other jacket styles around, other colours of jackets around, other sorts of neckwear around.

I think there are two factors at play here though. The hire industry has an interest in stocking just one style in one color. It just makes sense financially. Many people in Scotland do not own or regularly wear a kilt and seem to rent an outfit for events like weddings so they see what's in the shop and they imagine that it's always been that way.

The second thing, which I think plays more into non-Scots who wear the kilt, is that the PC looks like a tuxedo and is worn for similar events. Since the only proper colors for a tux are black and midnight blue (which is itself uncommon these days), the assumption is that highland dress should follow the same convention which is affirmed (in the mind of the renter) by the hire shops with their all black jackets.

[Hirsty]

The only white tie affairs (two, I shan't count my University graduation as that had some rather unusual interpretations of dress) that I have attended have both been in Scotland and the vast majority of males were kilted.
I have chatted to a couple of friends who have attended white tie balls south of the border - both wore Highland Dress an neither were turned away. One of the chaps noted there were Saudis dressed in thobes at one of the balls he attended.
Personally, I would question the decorum of the organiser if you were refused entry for wearing your finest evening Highland Dress.