Question for Jock and other Scots: neckwear.

[RichardtheLarge]

Hello the rabble,

In another thread regarding the use of the jabot, Jock mentioned that in some contexts a black bow tie would be considered more formal than a jabot and cuffs—in Scotland.

Would further elaboration be possible? I have several specific neckwear questions:

First, the “morningwear silk neck tie”, worn with the black and silver Argyll jacket: Must it be grey? Must it be solid, or can it be patterned in grey or other colors?

Next, the jabot. I have frequently read that this is to be worn with “full dress eveningwear” and some type of doublet.

The white bow tie: is this a faux pas with Highlandwear? OCRichard has provided some historic photos of gentlemen in diced hose, doublets, and white ties, making me curious whether the white bow tie is more or less interchangeable with the jabot and simply a matter of taste. It’s worth noting, however, that the white tie and waistcoat (and indeed, the cut of the Prince Charlie in general) is frequently critiqued in books on Highland dress as producing an overall “Lowland effect”.

Finally, the black bow tie: my impression, and my personal practice, has been to wear one in contexts where at least some people are attired in tuxedos. They’ll wear trousers, jackets, black ties, and waistcoats/cummerbunds, whereas I’ll wear my BBSBA, black waistcoat, black bow tie, kilt, dress sporran, and Argyle patterned hose with Queen Anne brogues. I’ve hitherto believed that I’m doing it “right” on these occasions, and neckwear other than a black bow tie had never even occurred to me in this particular context.

So when, or how, then, would a black bow tie be equally or more formal than a jabot with lace cuffs?

Thank you kindly in advance for your feedback on this subject, as this is a kernel of knowledge which I’ve hitherto never encountered.

[figheadair]

The suitability of an Argyll Jacket, or any other type of Highland Dress, for an even that calls for a Morning Coat has been discussed elsewhere. I have no view on this beyond questioning when and why one would wear Morning Wear which is a specific Saxon style. The practice of wearing Morning attire has disappeared from everyday use here and everywhere else I suspect save for a few archaic roles in London etc.

In 60 years I've never worn Morning attire and only once been to an event where it was worn. In that case it was a friend’s wedding in Dunkeld Cathedral where the groom and his father wore a Morning Coat and trews. Ironically the wedding was in the afternoon. The groom changed into a kilt for the evening reception at Murthly Castle where we had some great reeling in the small ballroom. I wore kilt and tweed throughout. As might be guessed, this was not a run-of-the-mill wedding.

Given the origins of Morning Dress and the style being essentially a type of Frock Coat then this late 18th century coat would be a good example of what could be considered a Highland equivalent.



White Bow ties have also been discussed in another thread. It may be that we have a different view in Scotland/UK. I come from a tradition that it is only worn (now) for the likes of State events, at Regimental Dinners where royalty is present and so forth.
I am not a fan of a jabot with lace cuffs, never worn one and cannot imagine where I would need/want to in preference to a black bowtie and Marcella shirt.

[Jock Scot]

I am sorry,I have written two lengthy replies and have tried to post them, sadly they have disappeared into the ether. I will try again after I have been for a long walk and may then have regained my humour

[Father Bill]

I am sorry,I have written two lengthy replies and have tried to post them, sadly they have disappeared into the ether. I will try again after I have been for a long walk and may then have regained my humour

Jock, when I have a long one to post, sometimes I write it in word-pro, save as I go along, then block and copy into the XMarks box. It prevents the problem you describe.

I look forward to your reply after your stroll.

[Jock Scot]

The trouble is Bill that this techno dunce does not understand techno jargon well enough to put what you so helpfully suggest into action!

What I intend to do, is to break up the very good questions into sections of perhaps three or maybe four sections as there really is a lot to cover.

[Jock Scot]

Richardthelarge.

Answer 1.

I think you need to understand a few things first, before I attempt to answer your excellent questions.

Firstly, some from outwith these shores may not like my answers from a British point of view and a Scottish point of view(remembering please, that the Scots really do not consider those from, say the USA for example, with Scottish roots as Scottish. They are American))but more importantly, I think many of the misunderstandings and questions arise on this website because these threads and answers are read through North American eyes and interpreted by North American brains and also by many others from other Nations too.

So here we go! British attire conventions, yes, even these days, can seem quite irksome to some. Remember too, that some Scots do not wear the kilt outwith the Highlands, or perhaps these days, outwith Scotland. Nevertheless we in the UK are guided by conventions that are guided by "what is done" and "what is not done", with the added complication of "personal flair".There are really no concrete rules other than good manners and consideration for others.If you want to dress like a clown at a particular occasion, lets say a formal dinner for example, then go ahead--------just don't expect to be invited again! It is that simple . The event in this case is rarely about YOU. So blend in with the event, conform and enjoy it. If you are not prepared to do that ,then its best to consider not going.

Part 2, to follow.

[Jock Scot]

Richardthelarge.

Part 2.

We also need to understand well, that saxon attire and Highland attire and their conventions come from completely different roots. On the whole, the respective attire conventions marry up reasonably well, but they do not match exactly, so its sometimes more of a blend of conventions and particularly so with formal attire. It is here that causes real confusion for some outwith(and within too) these shores.

It would be really helpful for all concerned if there was a set of A to Z attire regulations , but as I have explained that is not possible because of the differing starting points of saxon attire and kilt attire. Also, we are discussing civilian attire(not band attire either) where rules, regulations and Sergeant Majors hold no sway, neither in the main, are historical conventions or pictures helpful either. There are however, conventions, accepted practice, good manners and experience to guide us through this rather confusing situation and its especially so, for those that fail to understand the basics above.

Part 3, to follow.

[Jock Scot]

Hello the rabble,

In another thread regarding the use of the jabot, Jock mentioned that in some contexts a black bow tie would be considered more formal than a jabot and cuffs—in Scotland.

Would further elaboration be possible? I have several specific neckwear questions:

First, the “morningwear silk neck tie”, worn with the black and silver Argyll jacket: Must it be grey? Must it be solid, or can it be patterned in grey or other colors?

------------

Part 3.

I am not sure that I did say exactly that. I think I have already mentioned this in the past, but it won't hurt to repeat it in more detail. Not all black tie events are the same and particularly so when deciding what to wear in kilt attire terms. The jabot worn with an appropriate kilt jacket is certainly an option for those wanting to wear it to a higher end of black tie formality, but a black tie with appropriate jacket would do equally well.

At the bottom of the black tie evening kilt attire scale is the black barathea silver buttoned argyll(bbsba) with well polished black brogues or, oxfords with plain coloured hose and a fairly plain black sporran. It is not the attire to wear fancy hose and "mary Jane" shoes. Doing so, would raise many a Scottish eyebrow!

For the "average" kilted black tie event then a PC or Regulation Doublet would be a do-it-all choice for many, it can be worn with well polished black brogues or oxfords, plain hose and plain sporran and dressed up with a formal sporran, silver sporran chain, fancy hose and "Mary Jane" shoes for even smarter events . For most that is as far up the ladder of formality that they need to go, but yes the jabot with appropriate kilt jacket is a notch up, but a black tie will do equally well. The real trick is to identify the event accurately and dress accordingly and NOT to overdress.

For formal kilt daywear and indeed with morning suits( also happily and correctly worn in the afternoons) too, a silver/grey tie is not necessary. Regimental/club/university/old school ties are far from unusual. In passing, a wedding is NOT the place to wear a tie that you are not entitled too! My usual formal day tie is a blue with white or yellow dotted tie. It appears to be quite a popular choice.

The Groom in a morning suit, Jock in formal kilt daywear. Click the picture to enlarge


Part 4 to come.

[RichardtheLarge]

Richardthelarge.

Answer 1.

I think you need to understand a few things first, before I attempt to answer your excellent questions.

Firstly, some from outwith these shores may not like my answers from a British point of view and a Scottish point of view(remembering please, that the Scots really do not consider those from, say the USA for example, with Scottish roots as Scottish. They are American))but more importantly, I think many of the misunderstandings and questions arise on this website because these threads and answers are read through North American eyes and interpreted by North American brains and also by many others from other Nations too.

So here we go! British attire conventions, yes, even these days, can seem quite irksome to some. Remember too, that some Scots do not wear the kilt outwith the Highlands, or perhaps these days, outwith Scotland. Nevertheless we in the UK are guided by conventions that are guided by "what is done" and "what is not done", with the added complication of "personal flair".There are really no concrete rules other than good manners and consideration for others.If you want to dress like a clown at a particular occasion, lets say a formal dinner for example, then go ahead--------just don't expect to be invited again! It is that simple . The event in this case is rarely about YOU. So blend in with the event, conform and enjoy it. If you are not prepared to do that ,then its best to consider not going.

Part 2, to follow.

Jock,

I have seen this point made in other threads, and I do agree with you. Americans like myself with some Scottish family ties are not, in fact, Scots. I don’t describe a “right” to wear the kilt. I do it for fun, because I find highlandwear beautiful, and I wear it on occasions where there essentially is no specified dress code (these are, nevertheless, events at which -traditionally- black tie would be worn. I don’t wear it to lunch, but to high end restaurants before attending a theater premiere, for example).

Bear in mind that in the states a “real” dress code is so unusual that it is almost unheard of. Style pundits have long lamented that “black tie is dead”, moreso perhaps in America than elsewhere. When an event is ostensibly specified as black tie, many (most?) guests will arrive in business suits and more still will arrive in slacks or jeans, with or without jackets.

Because this is quite often the case for a supermajority of attendees, people have largely given up trying to insist on a dress code to just about everything. Nobody wants to send their wedding guests packing, for example, when they show up in shirt sleeves and a black necktie to a wedding with a “black tie” invitation.

A great example of the process I’m describing happened several years ago at the Oscar awards ceremony. It was decided by somebody that it would be great for the Oscars to be “white tie”, this time! The ceremony was scheduled for evening, after all.

So, inevitably, a few celebrities in the know found or purchased a tailcoat with a Marcella bow tie and waistcoat. The rest wore everything you could think of. There was the inevitable sea of tuxedos in addition to lounge suits and a few morningwear frocks.

My point, I suppose, is that if you’re remotely curious about what to wear on which occasions, and you’re not specifically disappointing your host, and you’re in the USA, then you’re doing great.

[Jock Scot]

So when, or how, then, would a black bow tie be equally or more formal than a jabot with lace cuffs?

Part 4.

Answer. When a black bow tie is worn with appropriate formal kilt attire to a white tie event!

OK, a slightly contradictory answer, but its true! Remember the different roots that Highland attire has and from a very different place from saxon attire, that I was talking about? At genuine white tie events the Highlander may wear a jabot with say a sheriffmuir jacket, but in the Highlands and particularly in the Western Highlands often a Clan tartan evening style jacket, made from silk or some other fine material and cut on the bias is worn with perhaps a black low cut three button waistcoat AND with a black tie. Some wear jabots, some wear black ties for this event and assuming the shoes, hose, sporran, sporran chain, maybe some really fancy silver buttons and the kilt jacket is correct for the neck wear and the kilt is correct then, for Highland attire jabot and cuffs, or black tie, is absolutely fine for white tie events

In passing, this is why I am less than enthusiastic about tartan daywear style kilt jackets and waist coats worn during the day that seem to be gaining popularity here at the moment. Apart from the less than flattering straight jacket style, I personally think tartan day jackets and tartan waist coats are just plain brash and rather unnecessary. Whereas, appropriate jackets in tartan worn for ultra formal events is the time and place for the rather loud kilt attire in all its forms to come out and play.

The end.